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Old 24 Nov 2017, 20:55 (Ref:3782704)   #1151
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Taking too long and now too heavy. If this was something that gave a performance advantage it would be on the car by Thursday and the engineering challenges dealt with before Question Time.
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Old 24 Nov 2017, 21:27 (Ref:3782713)   #1152
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Not to mention that according to SkyF1 Bottas tried a get out quick test on his halo fitted car yesterday and took more than 10 seconds.

It has been put down to doing it for the first time and not knowing where he could grab or pull on to lift himself out. Surely though in get out quick situations, you wouldn't have time or may not be able to get your hands into the best places but still get out quickly.
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Old 25 Nov 2017, 04:00 (Ref:3782811)   #1153
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"Teams have found that adding halo mountings and beefing up the chassis to pass the associated load tests has added extra weight even greater than that new allowance."

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13...rivers-in-2018
I suspect this quote from Hulkenberg, in the article above, may very well be correct...

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"I don't think the Halo will survive very long in F1, to be honest," he said.
My predictions for 2018...

1. Halo will continue to generally fly under the radar until right before the season starts.
2. When fans see it at the first race, many will be surprised of its existence and claim they were unaware of its impending introduction.
3. The outcry regarding its lack of esthetics will generate questions of why something as simple as a windscreen was not used instead.

I would not be shocked if we only see this on the cars for a year or two before it is replaced with something else.

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Old 25 Nov 2017, 09:30 (Ref:3782858)   #1154
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Well that would make sense even without the inbetween outrage we’ll have to suffer.

The halo is the solution which is best at the moment. Doesn’t mean it will remain the best of all the best going forward. Some of the other have advantages in other areas, but need more work.
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Old 25 Nov 2017, 11:55 (Ref:3782887)   #1155
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"Teams have found that adding halo mountings and beefing up the chassis to pass the associated load tests has added extra weight even greater than that new allowance."

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13...rivers-in-2018
It is really time good sense prevails and the driver weight is legislated so that it is no longer a performance differentiator, it is unnecessary and unfair. Fix the cockpit length while they are at it.
No good reason only jockeys should drive F1 cars, and even horse racing recognizes weight as a factor.
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Old 25 Nov 2017, 11:57 (Ref:3782888)   #1156
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Taking too long and now too heavy. If this was something that gave a performance advantage it would be on the car by Thursday and the engineering challenges dealt with before Question Time.
Never a truer word posted!
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Old 25 Nov 2017, 13:10 (Ref:3782904)   #1157
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So it hasn't been tested or engineered properly?

Well I never. Who'd have thought that this was just a political idea, rather than an attempt to find the best solution.
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Old 25 Nov 2017, 16:05 (Ref:3782920)   #1158
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I find it hard to take that the FIA seems to have gone for political gain over safety. They really need to reconsider this halo idea
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Old 25 Nov 2017, 23:18 (Ref:3782995)   #1159
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What’s the political gain?
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Old 25 Nov 2017, 23:58 (Ref:3783005)   #1160
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What’s the political gain?
Adam, I think the political is something has been done to help driver safety, so if someone is receives a head injury the FIA and FOM can say they took reasonable steps to prevent the injury.

Alternatively, someone is injured and it can be demonstrated that they sat on their hands and did nothing for five years, not a good look or defence in a liability suit.
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Old 26 Nov 2017, 09:22 (Ref:3783151)   #1161
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What’s the political gain?
Not gain, just refusal to admit they are wrong, or better solutions exist outside of what they thought up. Good old fashioned stubbornness. Someone has a solution and that's going to be what is used, regardless if it's a good one nor not.

Or if you want to be more cyclical, the political gain is Todts determination to get his Nobel Prize for road safety. That's been his big push whilst head of the FIA, developments on road safety. In terms of sporting development, in 8 years he's actually achieved very little. This concept can be rushed through without sufficient testing of alternative ideas, to act as another bullet point on the power point presentation on why he should get his prize.

Either of these scenarios are feasible, just depends on an individuals level of cynicism as to which they find more realistic.
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Old 26 Nov 2017, 10:20 (Ref:3783162)   #1162
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Old 26 Nov 2017, 11:52 (Ref:3783172)   #1163
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Not gain, just refusal to admit they are wrong, or better solutions exist outside of what they thought up. Good old fashioned stubbornness. Someone has a solution and that's going to be what is used, regardless if it's a good one nor not.

Or if you want to be more cyclical, the political gain is Todts determination to get his Nobel Prize for road safety. That's been his big push whilst head of the FIA, developments on road safety. In terms of sporting development, in 8 years he's actually achieved very little. This concept can be rushed through without sufficient testing of alternative ideas, to act as another bullet point on the power point presentation on why he should get his prize.

Either of these scenarios are feasible, just depends on an individuals level of cynicism as to which they find more realistic.
Ah, but the cynic doesn’t define what is true. This is perhaps even more true for those that substitute cynicism for rationalism. To be fair the former is easier hence is more common. Although sometimes they end up at the same place.

At the moment, the halo is probably the best solution. Will it end up being the best solution? I don’t think it will, but when someone comes up with a complete alternative then we can replace it.
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Old 26 Nov 2017, 15:10 (Ref:3783194)   #1164
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Ah, but the cynic doesn’t define what is true. This is perhaps even more true for those that substitute cynicism for rationalism. To be fair the former is easier hence is more common. Although sometimes they end up at the same place.

At the moment, the halo is probably the best solution. Will it end up being the best solution? I don’t think it will, but when someone comes up with a complete alternative then we can replace it.
But if we're going down the route of what is "true", then it's equally untrue to suggest the halo is the best solution. It's the only solution which has had a reasonable amount of development. That doesn't make it the best, it makes it the only one they've put money and time behind.

So then it becomes - why is it the only one they've backed? Given the obvious short falls of it compared to other proposals, it suggests it's political or financial. Since F1 never does the anything save a couple of quid, I'd say it's political.

Mr Todt wants his prize for safety. You don't get that prize by taking solutions other people have made. Windscreens are just that - solutions other people designed and developed. These were discounted for nonsensical reasons, just so they could go back to the halo. That means the FIA gets to wave a flag and say "Look at how smart we are! We made this brand new thing. Prize please!". They are determined to be original, not find the best solution for driver safety.

(F1 isn't the only series guilty of it. ACO hates to swallow their pride and admit they are wrong. IMSA likes to use someone elses product with new stickers, then talk about how amazing the new product is. They're all at it.)
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Old 26 Nov 2017, 15:48 (Ref:3783202)   #1165
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Halo is nothing but a half measure imposed to please neoconservative environment that F1 is. Closed cabins can't come soon enough but for some reason someone wants us to believe open cockpit is the identity of F1.
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Old 26 Nov 2017, 17:05 (Ref:3783218)   #1166
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But if we're going down the route of what is "true", then it's equally untrue to suggest the halo is the best solution. It's the only solution which has had a reasonable amount of development. That doesn't make it the best, it makes it the only one they've put money and time behind.
That’s what I said. But then we deviate.

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So then it becomes - why is it the only one they've backed? Given the obvious short falls of it compared to other proposals, it suggests it's political or financial. Since F1 never does the anything save a couple of quid, I'd say it's political.
It is clearly the easiest to get to a workable solution. The others, while potentially better, clearly need more development time.

I’ll be interested to see if those who prefer the other solutions put any further development into them. Or are they all talk.

Of course it would also be good to see the FIA to force further development.

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Mr Todt wants his prize for safety. You don't get that prize by taking solutions other people have made. Windscreens are just that - solutions other people designed and developed. These were discounted for nonsensical reasons, just so they could go back to the halo. That means the FIA gets to wave a flag and say "Look at how smart we are! We made this brand new thing. Prize please!". They are determined to be original, not find the best solution for driver safety.

(F1 isn't the only series guilty of it. ACO hates to swallow their pride and admit they are wrong. IMSA likes to use someone elses product with new stickers, then talk about how amazing the new product is. They're all at it.)
Todt, if that is what he is after, could claim that with any solution as F1 didn’t have it and then will. Managing to introduce a windscreen into this formula would just as revolutionary.

Your hypothesis could be true, but there is no evidence. I think the alternative is more likely.

BTW I’m against it and he other solutions. I would prefer the others, but I’d prefer none.
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Old 26 Nov 2017, 17:39 (Ref:3783225)   #1167
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It is clearly the easiest to get to a workable solution. The others, while potentially better, clearly need more development time.
The Halo is clearly the easiest to get to a workable solution? Not according to Force India technical director Andrew Green, who was quoted in that Autosport article.

He said the halo was still posing "a huge challenge" for teams. "It's massive," he said. "It's a big headache at the moment, trying to design a car that hits the weight limit and weight distribution target." He added that the loading test the chassis needs to pass "will almost destroy the halo" and described the device as "ugly" across the board.

As for any time spent on the Shield, it got just a few laps round Silverstone, with one driver.
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Old 26 Nov 2017, 18:00 (Ref:3783228)   #1168
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The weight problem isn’t the same as the getting the driver out or the visibility issues. Those two other problems clearly need more effort to overcome than the halo. They also still have the weight issue that the halo has. So there is only one of these to overcome with the halo and three of these to overcome with the shield. The shield clearly needs more development time because of this.

Not that I’m saying the weight thing isn’t unimportant.

The shield has only one test session. Why? Well the teams are as much to blame as the FIA. If they had tried harder then they could have demonstrated it to the FIA. Given more information and pushed it to the same standard or ahead of the halo.

And I’ll return to my previous comment. If the halo had a performance advantage then Force India, or whichever team, would have solved it by now. As they haven’t what hope was there for them to solve the other challenged with the shield.

I don’t think that the crash test is relevant. IIRC the halo is tested in a different way. One is the entire chassis holding together and absorbing an impact with, say a wall. The halls job is different.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not claiming it is ultimately better. Just that it is at the moment.

The teams are acting more like fans at the moment, they’re just sitting there are moaning. Politicking if you like, knowing that the press pick up their comment and write the story. Perhaps they, with the FIA, should put more effort into this. The geniuses are in the teams, as are the moaners.

To summarise. The halo has one problem to overcome. The shield three problems. The shield could be the better solution, but needs more development. Which no one has been arsed to do.
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Old 26 Nov 2017, 18:18 (Ref:3783240)   #1169
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To summarise. The halo has one problem to overcome. The shield three problems. The shield could be the better solution, but needs more development. Which no one has been arsed to do.
I think that the teams' attitude is that this comes as a directive from the FIA, but the FIA will not pay them for the time and materials that go into designing a workable end product, so why should they have to tie up their engineers and draughtsmen doing the FIA's job?

Might I humbly suggest that the FIA could and should have used all those millions of dollars (that they received from the sale of FOM to Liberty) in this drive for safety rather than expecting the costs to come out of the budgets of the bigger, more affluent teams. Why should the likes of Red Bull and Ferrari fund all the R & D, whilst the minnows, who will potentially benefit equally in the event of an incident, not contribute in any form?
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Old 26 Nov 2017, 18:37 (Ref:3783243)   #1170
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Fair point.

I have no real feeling of either the teams or the FIA being treated unfairly if they have to fund it! The FIA aren’t destitute, but should have made more from the sale (that’s a different topic!) and some of those teams have a regular income of a lot of money every year.
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Old 26 Nov 2017, 20:45 (Ref:3783268)   #1171
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Speaking of money...will an F1 team win a tender to manufacture and sell the devise to the other downstream categories? Or will the FIA pick a company outside of F1...and obviously realize a kickback for handing out that contract (I say cynically).

Actually surprised that the teams themselves were not so willing to spend the time developing something they could have sold on much like McLaren do with their ECU. Could have been a nice little earner.

Now waiting to see what happens when they try to force this on FE.
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Old 26 Nov 2017, 22:30 (Ref:3783283)   #1172
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Speaking of money...will an F1 team win a tender to manufacture and sell the devise to the other downstream categories? Or will the FIA pick a company outside of F1...and obviously realize a kickback for handing out that contract (I say cynically).
you'll have to ask dallara... it's mostly their problem. expect the mygale f4 one to be made out of bog roll tubes though

that's actually one of my bigger concerns tbh. it's all very well having this abomination in f1 but imposing it on lower formulae is a bit draconian.
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Old 26 Nov 2017, 23:17 (Ref:3783303)   #1173
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The weight problem isn’t the same as the getting the driver out or the visibility issues. Those two other problems clearly need more effort to overcome than the halo. They also still have the weight issue that the halo has. So there is only one of these to overcome with the halo and three of these to overcome with the shield. The shield clearly needs more development time because of this.

Not that I’m saying the weight thing isn’t unimportant.

The shield has only one test session. Why? Well the teams are as much to blame as the FIA. If they had tried harder then they could have demonstrated it to the FIA. Given more information and pushed it to the same standard or ahead of the halo.

And I’ll return to my previous comment. If the halo had a performance advantage then Force India, or whichever team, would have solved it by now. As they haven’t what hope was there for them to solve the other challenged with the shield.

I don’t think that the crash test is relevant. IIRC the halo is tested in a different way. One is the entire chassis holding together and absorbing an impact with, say a wall. The halls job is different.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not claiming it is ultimately better. Just that it is at the moment.

The teams are acting more like fans at the moment, they’re just sitting there are moaning. Politicking if you like, knowing that the press pick up their comment and write the story. Perhaps they, with the FIA, should put more effort into this. The geniuses are in the teams, as are the moaners.

To summarise. The halo has one problem to overcome. The shield three problems. The shield could be the better solution, but needs more development. Which no one has been arsed to do.
IndyCar have rejected the Halo, because of the ovals, so it will be interesting to see how they deal with these three problems the Shield potentially faces, if and when they arise during testing.
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Old 26 Nov 2017, 23:31 (Ref:3783310)   #1174
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Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith View Post
IndyCar have rejected the Halo, because of the ovals, so it will be interesting to see how they deal with these three problems the Shield potentially faces, if and when they arise during testing.
Does IndyCar race in wet weather? If no then the Aeroscreen should work.

Don't follow the series, but I do remember a race years ago where IndyCar drivers turned into marshmallows when water was added.
They were on the radios wanting the race to be stopped when it started to drizzle. Lost interest there and then.
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Old 26 Nov 2017, 23:44 (Ref:3783315)   #1175
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Originally Posted by F1Guy View Post
Does IndyCar race in wet weather? If no then the Aeroscreen should work.

Don't follow the series, but I do remember a race years ago where IndyCar drivers turned into marshmallows when water was added.
They were on the radios wanting the race to be stopped when it started to drizzle. Lost interest there and then.
Not on ovals, otherwise yes. There's been a lot of great racing, wet or dry, you've missed out.
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