[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by tomerswayler

What's the fastest laptime of a non hybrid car around Le Mans in the last ten years and under what set of regulations (weight, fuel limits) was it set?

guess 2008 pole marked by 908HDi in 3.18.

Regs were 930kg for diesels, 81L fuel tank, 800hp@5000rpm and torque over 1300Nm

[canaglia]

BTW private lmp1 have aero parts waivers, toyota has TMG engineers army.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by canaglia

guess 2008 pole marked by 908HDi in 3.18.

Regs were 930kg for diesels, 81L fuel tank, 800hp@5000rpm and torque over 1300Nm

Air restrictors were a nuisance for the old diesels still

Anyway those comparisons are utterly meaningless at LM. The track is probably 3-5 or more seconds faster now than in 2008 thanks to the asphalt runoffs next to every corner now. It may not sound like much but if you gain extra micro seconds everywhere by cutting corners and getting greater acceleration for the next straight, you will be picking up speed like never before. In addition this year Sarthe will also be 3 meters shorter

[Adam43]

3-5 seconds? Crikey!

[Deleted]

Well that's just my estimation as it's hard to tell exactly considering there's not been a sudden radical change, but rather a very gradual slide over number of years. Also the regulative changes have tended to collide with years when there's been visibly larger scale modifications (like 2014)

Sebring will provide the best ground for comparing as it's not been the victim of sanitation or other revamps over the years, next year we will have clear indication of where modern LMP1 stands in contrast to the past

[Adam43]

I think that significantly over states it, but we know your estimations on it. I’m not saying the run off isn’t important, but it’s more about consistent lap time and making it easier to get up to the limit rather than absolute lap time. And, of course, not punishing mistakes with a time penalty, or damage, or injury. The impact on lap time? It’s not that much.

Corner speed and exit speed for the straight is way more important in slower racing and it just doesn’t make proportionally that much impact based on my experience.

[canaglia]

Asphalted runoff were introduced in 2006 or 2007 if am I not wrong, were already there in 2008.
Mulsanne Straight was revamped in 2012 or 2013, because of that guess 2008 and 2010 908HDi could be even faster.

Useless to say that aero and tires development was considerably poor compared to nowadays lmp1's.
Considering also that 908HDi always ran overweighted and >1000Nm were available every second the car was on track....
we could say that 2008 pole was a display of mere brute power.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Adam43

3-5 seconds? Crikey!

This just gave me an idea, what if they kept an old car from a few years ago (let's say an R18) and kept some of the old tires and re rar and the car after they make adjustments to the track to see what the lap times are compared to what they were with the car previously. I'd watch that!

[TF110]

Originally Posted by joeb

This just gave me an idea, what if they kept an old car from a few years ago (let's say an R18) and kept some of the old tires and re rar and the car after they make adjustments to the track to see what the lap times are compared to what they were with the car previously. I'd watch that!

That's the main reason I like to see the LM classic cars run even though I know they somewhat baby them around.

[GasperG]

Originally Posted by tomerswayler

What's the fastest laptime of a non hybrid car around Le Mans in the last ten years and under what set of regulations (weight, fuel limits) was it set?

I would look into what was performance decrease when Porsche hybrid system failed, as far as I know they had only ERS-H working but they couldn't use battery for boosting with full power, that meant also no energy from ERS-K.

I can't remember when and what circuit was this, but I'm sure someone will dig out the details. I know I was surprised that decrease was only around 2 seconds per lap. Later the rules forbid running with defective hybrid system.

All in all IMO, when someone throws a lot of time and money into privateer LMP1 project, Toyota may as well pack their bags and go home. Luckily for this year time is running out, so they have the chance, but for next year there will have to be an EOT adjustment.

[TzeiTzei]

Porsche's hybrid failed at Spa. 2016 or 2017.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by TzeiTzei

Porsche's hybrid failed at Spa. 2016 or 2017.

2016 and has been the craziest WEC race I've ever seen

lieb car had a failure of front electric engines transmission soon after the start of the race. They lost much more than 2 seconds per lap. The car lost hybrid boost and most of all, drivers were basically unable to brake accurately

[Victor_RO]

And full list of laptimes for that race is here: http://fiawec.alkamelsystems.com/Res...lysis_Race.PDF

[canaglia]

Yeah, from 2.0-2.02 performance dropped to 2.07-2.10. That race was a last man standing.

[GasperG]

Yeah that was the lap time achieved with 500 HP only, 45 kg more weight, less wing and failing brakes.

Now imagine what would a "privateer" Porsche team do with 700 HP, 45 kg weight advantage, bigger wing and working brakes. They would demolish the competition.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by GasperG

Yeah that was the lap time achieved with 500 HP only, 45 kg more weight, less wing and failing brakes.

Now imagine what would a "privateer" Porsche team do with 700 HP, 45 kg weight advantage, bigger wing and working brakes. They would demolish the competition.

is the porsche powered rebellion oreca lmp1 rumor still alive? or has gibson definetively been confirmed at the end?

2015-2017 porsche and toyota turbo ICE were in the 600hp range for sure.
But anyway power alone is quite useless... take CLM... the most powerfull ICE under the hood, but almost nothing more.

[GasperG]

Engine alone may as well be capable of 600 hp but engine is restricted with fuel flow of 80 kg/h.

Let's calculate, what engine efficiency would be needed for 600 HP:
At 100% efficiency: 80 kg/h * 10.9 kW*h/kg = 872 kW
At 50% efficiency = 436 kW = 600 HP
At 43% efficiency = 375 kW = 510 HP

Does LMP1 engine have 50% efficiency? I doubt it.

Privateer:
At 100% efficiency 110 kg/h * 10.9 kW*h/kg = 1199 kW
At 50% efficiency = 600 kW = 815 HP
At 42% efficiency = 515 kW = 700 HP

For fuel energy density I used 39.3 MJ/kg (10.9 kWh/kg), but no matter how you put, with the same technology a privateer can have 37% more power from the IC engine.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I think that significantly over states it, but we know your estimations on it. I’m not saying the run off isn’t important, but it’s more about consistent lap time and making it easier to get up to the limit rather than absolute lap time. And, of course, not punishing mistakes with a time penalty, or damage, or injury. The impact on lap time? It’s not that much.

Corner speed and exit speed for the straight is way more important in slower racing and it just doesn’t make proportionally that much impact based on my experience.

I though we were talking about absolute lap times here when we brought up the question in the first place?

But even if we weren't, if there wasn't an impact, they would not be doing it. Every. Single. Lap. Most blatantly at Tetre Rouge, first chicane and Corvette Corner of course, but everywhere else as well. If it wasn't significant you wouldn't be running over kerbs all the time and (at least potentially) be risking damaging anything.

They seem to be doing it even on slippery conditions at the recently-asphalt-reinforced Indy, which has occasionally caused problems. Yet they can't stop it

Other than the speed itself you also want that corner speed to clear of slower class traffic which you often get stuck behind there.

Originally Posted by canaglia

Asphalted runoff were introduced in 2006 or 2007 if am I not wrong, were already there in 2008.
Mulsanne Straight was revamped in 2012 or 2013, because of that guess 2008 and 2010 908HDi could be even faster.

Useless to say that aero and tires development was considerably poor compared to nowadays lmp1's.
Considering also that 908HDi always ran overweighted and >1000Nm were available every second the car was on track....
we could say that 2008 pole was a display of mere brute power.

What you had by 2007-08 was the Ford Chicane heavily tinkered with, that strip of asphalt on the first left hander at Indianapolis, the (mostly even by then ancient) shoulders on Mulsanne, as well as minor patches here and there. But otherwise that was pretty much it even as late as 2009-2010, very little work. I first noticed the bigger patches starting to appear in 2011 and then 2012 really showed it. After that it's been a continuous run

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Chiana

What you had by 2007-08 was the Ford Chicane heavily tinkered with, that strip of asphalt on the first left hander at Indianapolis, the (mostly even by then ancient) shoulders on Mulsanne, as well as minor patches here and there. But otherwise that was pretty much it even as late as 2009-2010, very little work. I first noticed the bigger patches starting to appear in 2011 and then 2012 really showed it. After that it's been a continuous run

In 2008 dunlop chicane runoffs were already asphalted; tetre rouge, indianapolis and porsche sector too. These days there is some other runoff here and there (arnage at example) and much more bananas

Check here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OM-6vmDG4o

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by GasperG

Engine alone may as well be capable of 600 hp but engine is restricted with fuel flow of 80 kg/h.

Let's calculate, what engine efficiency would be needed for 600 HP:
At 100% efficiency: 80 kg/h * 10.9 kW*h/kg = 872 kW
At 50% efficiency = 436 kW = 600 HP
At 43% efficiency = 375 kW = 510 HP

Does LMP1 engine have 50% efficiency? I doubt it.

Privateer:
At 100% efficiency 110 kg/h * 10.9 kW*h/kg = 1199 kW
At 50% efficiency = 600 kW = 815 HP
At 42% efficiency = 515 kW = 700 HP

For fuel energy density I used 39.3 MJ/kg (10.9 kWh/kg), but no matter how you put, with the same technology a privateer can have 37% more power from the IC engine.

Nice analysis

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by canaglia

In 2008 dunlop chicane runoffs were already asphalted; tetre rouge, indianapolis and porsche sector too. These days there is some other runoff here and there (arnage at example) and much more bananas

Check here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OM-6vmDG4o

Yeah I forgot dunlop and tetre rouge, but besides them as I said left-side indy and porsche (towards ford chicane) + the Mulsanne shoulders were the only ones up until around 2011. Now I think the only section without asphalt of any kind is the brief rundown after the esses to tetre rouge, but even that's not a corner really... and probably will be gone in few years anyway

What you had in 2007-2010 at LM was pretty much as much as there is in say Road America today... in other words, it was fine

[canaglia]

Nowadays there are just 2 points where asph. runoff are wildly exploited.

1: runoff at exit of dunlop chicane, where all cars tend to be as wide as possible, even with all 4 wheels if necessary

2: runoff next to virage du kart. The presence of this runoff turned this corner in a flat out straight, with lmp1 and lmp2 going easily off road with the whole car to pass slower gte cars.

Tetre rouge and ford chicanes runoff are dangerous to cross because of those insidious banans. Recall bruni during LM 2010 smashed the transmission of his 430 GT2 jumping too easily on them while battling against corvette.

[hondafan37]

Good analysis of LMP1 future in DSC

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2018/0...ight-come.html

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by canaglia

Nowadays there are just 2 points where asph. runoff are wildly exploited.

1: runoff at exit of dunlop chicane, where all cars tend to be as wide as possible, even with all 4 wheels if necessary

2: runoff next to virage du kart. The presence of this runoff turned this corner in a flat out straight, with lmp1 and lmp2 going easily off road with the whole car to pass slower gte cars.

Tetre rouge and ford chicanes runoff are dangerous to cross because of those insidious banans. Recall bruni during LM 2010 smashed the transmission of his 430 GT2 jumping too easily on them while battling against corvette.

They go WAY off the mark also in the exit of the first chicane, sometimes all four wheels. That's the absolute worst besides those two above. In addition most notably, Mulsanne corner, right hand Indianapolis, the exit of Ford chicane. And they still violate Tetre Rouge, it's more attractive now than in 2010 thanks to the modified axis for the 2014 event

The new COTA-look for Porsche Curves probably isn't going to help things...

[TF110]

Maybe we could make a track limits thread. I don't think they gain seconds on a 3:15 lap by running the whole track.

Anyway, if the privateers have an engine that has above 40% efficiency, they should be making very good power. I think Japanese Samurai linked to an article from Nissan about their engine in the Koles car saying it was above 42 or 43%.