[BTCC] BTCC 2018 - Rounds 1, 2, 3 - Brands Hatch Indy

[VIVA GT]

Another couple of things to consider is that (some of) the Subaru's may have the mechanical Mountune boxer engine, but I'd doubt that they would have the software (mapping/calibration). Plus, TOCA may have knocked them back on boost a bit this year as they won last year?

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by AdrianM

Yet some other reports say that Plato is the only one with a Swindon maintained boxer engine and still others say it's a TOCA engine for the Subaru and they've all got them and others say the Swindon boxer is undeveloped and is producing less power than the old Mountune ones. Media mess.

Miss the days when JP would contribute. We might know the actual facts then.

in motorsport news today (and with quotes from warren scott) it says that plato had the only swindon-tuned boxer engine but the other two will have them for donington as they used the mountune-tuned boxer engine at brands hatch.

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

in motorsport news today (and with quotes from warren scott) it says that plato had the only swindon-tuned boxer engine but the other two will have them for donington as they used the mountune-tuned boxer engine at brands hatch.

So both engines for the season used up after Donington?

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

in motorsport news today (and with quotes from warren scott) it says that plato had the only swindon-tuned boxer engine but the other two will have them for donington as they used the mountune-tuned boxer engine at brands hatch.

This following applies if BMR change engines again after Donington.

It will be interesting to know whether TOCA would impose the 10 point team penalty for each of the two refreshed engines as per the rules, as obviously the engines could not have been sealed immediately after the official test session (I mistakenly stated after the media day in my previous post).

Although, the rules do also allow engines to be replaced without penalty for exceptional circumstances. Whether a lack of money prior to the cut off date could be exceptional can't surely be an acceptable reason.

Or, will the engines used last weekend be considered the first of the two engines permitted per season, and BMR are hoping that the Swindon units going in for Donington will last for the rest of the races.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

in motorsport news today (and with quotes from warren scott) it says that plato had the only swindon-tuned boxer engine but the other two will have them for donington as they used the mountune-tuned boxer engine at brands hatch.

At the Brands test, Swindon technicians were working on Price's car at times, so his engine has definitely been swindon-tuned (if not built) since before the season started....

[porsche962fan]

Mat Neal mentioned the very low drag of the new Civic, wonder how exactly they supposedly done it

[AdrianM]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

Mat Neal mentioned the very low drag of the new Civic, wonder how exactly they supposedly done it

The new Type R is renowned for a low drag coefficient so presumably it's carried over to the race car.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

AFAIK he has 97 BTCC wins so who knows, maybe if he reaches 100 he will finally retire ?

So on current form, we've got him for another 5 or 6 years

[Akrapovic]

Yes, they do say the new Civic aero is purposeful and not just for show. Which is good because it's one of the most hideous vehicles I've ever seen.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Yes, they do say the new Civic aero is purposeful and not just for show. Which is good because it's one of the most hideous vehicles I've ever seen.

'The overall drag coefficient is reduced by 3% compared to the previous Type R.

The all-new Type R has a more comprehensive aerodynamic package than the previous model, including a smoother underbody, front tyre air curtain, a slim rear wing and vortex generators at the trailing edge of the roof line. The muscular, aggressive body has a best-in-class balance between lift and drag, contributing to greater high speed stability.'

'all those vents, kinks and canards on the Civic Type R really paid off- a drag coefficient of 0.26 is insanely slippery! For your reference, a Porsche 911 Turbo’s cD is 0.31'

[porsche962fan]

well they do have a chance to prove it at Donington and Thoxton specially if it's dry

[RS67]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

At the Brands test, Swindon technicians were working on Price's car at times, so his engine has definitely been swindon-tuned (if not built) since before the season started....

If Swindon are now looking after the engines they were hardly likely to be getting Mountune to work on them again.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by RS67

If Swindon are now looking after the engines they were hardly likely to be getting Mountune to work on them again.

Yet speculation is that the engines were still Mountune-tuned in two of the cars at Brands Hatch?

If they were not yet Swindon-tuned, and Mountune were no longer involved, does that mean the engines had no tuning since the end of 2017?

If so - it makes Sutton's efforts look even more impressive, and suggests that Plato with a tuned engine, is only marginally faster than Price with an un-tuned unit?

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Yet speculation is that the engines were still Mountune-tuned in two of the cars at Brands Hatch?

If they were not yet Swindon-tuned, and Mountune were no longer involved, does that mean the engines had no tuning since the end of 2017?

If so - it makes Sutton's efforts look even more impressive, and suggests that Plato with a tuned engine, is only marginally faster than Price with an un-tuned unit?

what makes you think their swindon-tuned boxer engines will be any more powerful than their mountune-tuned boxer engines? all engines have equalised power outputs so they are not going to be very much different from the other.

[RS67]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Yet speculation is that the engines were still Mountune-tuned in two of the cars at Brands Hatch?

If they were not yet Swindon-tuned, and Mountune were no longer involved, does that mean the engines had no tuning since the end of 2017?

If so - it makes Sutton's efforts look even more impressive, and suggests that Plato with a tuned engine, is only marginally faster than Price with an un-tuned unit?

I would imagine BMR would have bought the various calibrations that Mountune had along with the engines. With the limited testing BMR actually carried out over the winter, it's not unreasonable to assume that the engines won't be any better now that Swindon are building them and looking after them. I very much doubt that Swindon have had the time to actually change much in the engines to further develop them from what Mountune originally built.

[sceptic]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Or, will the engines used last weekend be considered the first of the two engines permitted per season, and BMR are hoping that the Swindon units going in for Donington will last for the rest of the races.

That's exactly it.

And there's no reason why those engines shouldn't last the rest of the season.

Last year, Collard, Austin, Epps, Chilton, Smiley, Hill, Burns, Taylor-Smith, O Jackson, Jordan, Whorton-Eales and Ingram did the whole season on a single engine. Jeff and Brett Smith used only one engine between them.

The only team to get an engine penalty in the whole of 2016 was Simpson Motorsport.

[AdrianM]

Price's engine (if it's a Mountune one) is hardly un-tuned. Once an engine is mapped there isn't really anything that needs to be changed on a race by race basis. Perhaps if you're looking for the last 2 or 3hp it might be adjusted for atmospheric conditions.

[crmalcolm]

There seems to be a lot of confusion over the Subaru engine situation at the moment, and mixed messages in the media and from the drivers.

From what I can gather, the situation seems to be that:

In 2017, the Subaru Boxer engine was built and developed by Mountune.

At the end of 2017, Mountune stopped working on the engines, and BMR looked for an alternative partner.

For 2018, the Subaru engines will be / are maintained by Swindon. Josh Price states that this arrangement will be in place before Media Day.

Swindon technicians begin maintaining the Subaru engines (I saw this happen on Price's car on 4th April).

Rumours are that Plato has a 'new' engine for R1, but the other cars are using 2017 builds. (I have not seen confirmation of this).

Article reports that Sutton/Price will have 'new' engines for Donington. (I have not seen the confirmation of this).

Assuming all of the above is correct, my thoughts are:

If there is marginal difference between an 'old' and 'new' engine, why would BMR (and particularly Sutton) risk an engine change now, which could result in penalty later in the season?

If there is marginal difference between an 'old' and 'new' engine, why would Plato pay for a new engine from his own pocket?

If there is a significant difference between an 'old' and 'new' engine, why is Plato so far off the pace of Sutton, and only just ahead of Price?

Is Price better than some have given him credit for?
Is Sutton that much better than Plato?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by AdrianM

Price's engine (if it's a Mountune one) is hardly un-tuned. Once an engine is mapped there isn't really anything that needs to be changed on a race by race basis. Perhaps if you're looking for the last 2 or 3hp it might be adjusted for atmospheric conditions.

Warren Scott has already confirmed they are changing the mapping from the 2017 spec though - so is this applied to all three units?

'We’ve done [...] a few mods to the engine [...] Hopefully we will have a bit more usable power [..] fine-tuning everything – mapping, cams, exhaust'

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by septic

Last year, Collard, Austin, Epps, Chilton, Smiley, Hill, Burns, Taylor-Smith, O Jackson, Jordan, Whorton-Eales and Ingram did the whole season on a single engine. Jeff and Brett Smith used only one engine between them..

I would love to read the source of this; could you provide a link, please.

And, assuming that the above is true, what is to say that, within the rules, those engines weren't stripped, refurbished and re-built. That would still mean that only one engine was used during the season.

Drawing on my own experience from 50 years ago, I raced for roughly 5 years with just one engine. However, we changed the head gasket after each meeting, and after two meetings I stripped the engine down completely and rebuilt it, at a minimum, with new big end shells and small end bushes, new piston rings and new valve springs. But it remained just one engine.

[steve_r]

Ahh - Triggers Broom.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Rumours are that Plato has a 'new' engine for R1, but the other cars are using 2017 builds. (I have not seen confirmation of this).

It was stated at least once during the ITV programme on Sunday

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

If there is marginal difference between an 'old' and 'new' engine, why would Plato pay for a new engine from his own pocket?

Considering the stresses that the engines go through over a season, it would be prudent, at the very least, to just refresh the engine with new bearings, bushes, piston rings and so on. Fine tuning would be an added bonus.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

It was stated at least once during the ITV programme on Sunday




Considering the stresses that the engines go through over a season, it would be prudent, at the very least, to just refresh the engine with new bearings, bushes, piston rings and so on. Fine tuning would be an added bonus.

Thanks for that - hadn't heard much of the commentary in the broadcast, I was relying on timing screens for my coverage!!

If Plato's engine goes pop, will he be asking the team to fund a replacement?

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

what is to say that, within the rules, those engines weren't stripped, refurbished and re-built. That would still mean that only one engine was used during the season.

http://www.btcc.net/wp-content/uploa...egulations.pdf
Section 1.16

Sump and cam cover bolts are sealed. If you break those seal then that is considered a change of engine. So in your example, stripping and re-building would be considered a 'new' engine even if it was the same block.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I would love to read the source of this; could you provide a link, please.

And, assuming that the above is true, what is to say that, within the rules, those engines weren't stripped, refurbished and re-built. That would still mean that only one engine was used during the season.

Drawing on my own experience from 50 years ago, I raced for roughly 5 years with just one engine. However, we changed the head gasket after each meeting, and after two meetings I stripped the engine down completely and rebuilt it, at a minimum, with new big end shells and small end bushes, new piston rings and new valve springs. But it remained just one engine.

Sad to say, you are a few decades out of date!