IMSA DPi Discussion

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

yeah, but the whole point of the P2 portion of the P class is that Euro/global cars can come over and race unmodified. letting IMSA P2s do Anything different might hinder that ... though I cannot imagine anything hinders it more than the double-whammy of bad BoP and Continental tires.

If all IMSA did was open up or remove the restrictors(the Gibson engine has a LOT of untapped potential), taking a car to Le MAns would be a very simple matter.


And frankly, IMSA really should let go of the "balance to P2 performance" side of the equation and let the P2s have a little more power as part of the BoP. The Gibson engine may have a little extra torque to provide if it were opened up a bit, which would certainly help against the Caddys.

[Akrapovic]

It very much depends on the agreement between IMSA and the ACO. You can't just use the LMP2s and ignore what the ACO says - that's already been tried with LMP3 without a license agreement.

If people want to split the class, then I don't see why you'd split and then open up the LMP2s. In fact, given this is a BoP class, I don't see why you'd open development on any car. What does it achieve other than raise costs? Slightly faster lap times? Is that really going to improve things?

[chernaudi]

And that's actually been a point of contention. LMP2s can't do any real development outside of what the ACO allows, which is hardly anything. DPIs have been allowed more open development. Even if homologation has been essentially frozen for Cadillac and ESM since Daytona, they still did work in the off season.

That basically created the same yo-yo effect of BOP that happened last year. Last season it took basically until Watkins Glen to get the BOP basically right between the LMP2s and DPIs. Then development happened and the whole process started over.

Mind you, I do think that the DPIs are definitely being held back. And I'd rather see the leash loosened a bit on them. However, I don't want to see the R&D war that LMP1 became under the 2014 regs. That was one problem with EOT as the ACO imposed it vs BOP. Development was left so open-ended that it spawned a tech war between Audi, Porsche and Toyota, the effects of which we're still experiencing today. But that part is a different discussion for another thread.

Point is, as I see it, IMSA has little choice but to do one of two things. Either split LMP2 and DPI and let DPI off the leash a bit, or freeze most development with the DPI cars to keep LMP2s close.

[Maelochs]

The one (possible) positive side of a tech war at the DPi level is that internal combustion engines might not be nearly as expensive to develop as hybrid systems.

Isn’t that another of those racing conundrums, though? Racing is supposed to be about going faster, but going faster takes engineering and testing … and costs money. The rich go faster, the richer faster still, until no one can afford to play and everybody goes home.

However … the alternatives are either spec cars, which fans hate, or BoP ( or EoT for the Euros who can’t admit they treat mega—million-dollar land-bound rocket ships the same way they treat three-year-old GT cars.)

And of course a lot of fans hate BoP.

The best way to balance cars for BoP is to have independent test drivers on a representative track—which is impossible for a series that races at Sebring, Daytona, city street course, and Laguna Seca.

A decent baseline could be set at any road course … and everything could be aligned with the fastest P2. And the fastest P2, as we have seen, will get eaten alive out of slow corners or in traffic.

Or … turn up the wick on the Gibson, but how much? If P2s are already on par with DPis on an open track, giving them more power would tilt the balance unacceptable in their favor.

At some point fans (that’s us) have to accept that some cars will do better on some courses. The Cadillacs do great on street courses but the Acuras seem to have an edge on road courses … but the P2s can beat both on a fast road course Like Laguna or Watkins Glen. Is that so bad?

Let teams pick their weapons and have at it.

I think most of us would like to see some limited development all season long—but how to impose limits? Accounting can get around cost caps, and even if only tiny adjustments are allowed, teams like Penske will spend millions to get .0001 less drag on a mirror like they did in IndyCar.

And no matter what, privateer teams lose more as more development is allowed. P2 ceases to be an affordable alternative once development is allowed.

I would love to see what DPis could do unfettered. I would like to see IMSA get over the hope that Euro teams are going to want to contest the big events, or the NAEC. But I also know the series cannot afford to dump on the privateers, because sooner or later manufacturers change their minds.

So … what all this boils down to is … IMSA has it pretty right, right now. A privateer can win, any DPi can win, and if no p2 team really has a chance at the championship … most seem to be playing for the Pro-Am title anyway.

And, the racing is pretty good.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

However … the alternatives are either spec cars, which fans hate, or BoP ( or EoT for the Euros who can’t admit they treat mega—million-dollar land-bound rocket ships the same way they treat three-year-old GT cars.)

Pathetic.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

Pathetic.

Agreed. Lets not get into an EOT vs BOP argument. But EOT balances a whole CLASS of cars, not INDIVIDUAL cars. ByKolles has a turbo and Rebellion doesn't. They get fuel to burn and have at it. There's no specified wing angle, no air restrictor size discrepancy, no control over those things with EOT.

As for DPi and Hyundai, it sounds more like the 'Nismo' ESM than something on the level of the Penske Acura's or Caddies. An upgraded engine to lease/purchase, some stickers and blessing to use their name. The rest is up to the JDC team. Would be a cool project but I don't see it as another manufacturer ponying up the goods to be a big part of the class. I guess it has it's advantages and disadvantages.

[carbsmith]

The class balance doesn't work because they either don't want it to or don't care if it doesn't, I don't see how you can think they can get GT cars to lap together at whatever arbitrary speed but they just can't fathom they need to slow a car down in P.

Just take Daytona as its own microcosm. At the Roar the order was Cadillac>Acura>Nissan>Mazda>ORECA>Ligier. So what did they do? They slightly slowed the Cadillac, gave the Acura more fuel, and sped up the Nissan and Mazda (which were actually lapping at the same speeds as the LMP2s). Now in what crazy universe does do anything to address the speed deficit for the LMP2 cars? How can anyone pretend to be surprised that the race was a DPi freight train with LMP2 in their own separate race?

"Development" is just the new buzzword excuse, because apparently claiming every LMP2 team in the world is just incompetent wasn't working.

[Accident]

Originally Posted by TF110

Agreed. Lets not get into an EOT vs BOP argument. But EOT balances a whole CLASS of cars, not INDIVIDUAL cars. ByKolles has a turbo and Rebellion doesn't. They get fuel to burn and have at it. There's no specified wing angle, no air restrictor size discrepancy, no control over those things with EOT.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

yeah, but the whole point of the P2 portion of the P class is that Euro/global cars can come over and race unmodified. letting IMSA P2s do Anything different might hinder that ... though I cannot imagine anything hinders it more than the double-whammy of bad BoP and Continental tires.

In my scenario, the classes would have been split, so there would still be a place for our European friends. The modified P2s would become DPis.

I had just watched the '01 6 hours at the Glen with Jon Field and Oliver Gavin leading in that B98/10 Lola when I posted this. I'd still like to see that (meaning, buy a chassis, pick an engine, and go racing) continue in the future.

Everyone hates BOP, but IMSA are the best at it. That might be a controversial opinion around here, but I think it's true.

[carbsmith]

That's a pretty bold claim considering the same car has won 10 out of 16 races in the history of the category.

[Adam43]

Good point, but I’ve seen single make categories where one team dominates.

[Maelochs]

BoP and EoT are both artificially imposed systems designed to allow a wider rule set and performance parity. There has always been some sort of system, through boost limits, weight, whatever, to balance the performance of cars withing classes when there were a wide range of approaches to a given formula. generally, the simpler the better ....

In the old days, when racing was a Lot cheaper, and wasn't justified to the boards of Directors as publicity, not winning was more acceptable. Nowadays, it may bedifferent.

I'd say IMSA is okay with BoP at best. They still base performance on team drivers, which means sandbagging is almost guaranteed, and rarely enforce the anti-sandbagging rule .... And suspiciously it seems certain cars get breaks when needed 9the tinfoil-hat die of me urges me to type ... )

But ... the best? They never really managed to "balance" DPs and P2s, and I don't know that they have with DPis and P2s.

But as for Cadillacs winning everything ... in the first season they were by far the best prepared ... having done all the testing for the series .... and nothing beats torque in traffic.

Acura could go on a similar run, because they have a good car, good drivers, and a very good team, with no slow drivers.

IMSA has done an adequate job of balancing with classes or (with the P-class) sub-classes, I'd say ... which is particularly hard given the first four tracks each year are radically different and two, completely unique.

I still maintain the only way to get it really right would be to have testing with independent drivers at a road course once a season and unchanging BoP thereafter.

The worst pert of BoP to me is the tweaks ... it is almost as if the series is picking winners.

I say again though, i don't see a way around some sort of balance system, whoever much I hate it.

[Maelochs]

Not enough sleep, not enough coffee ... not sure that last post made any sense at all. I shall see tomorrow.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Semi-Friendly suggestion: Reduce the amount of line breaks in your posts by about 99%.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

That's a pretty bold claim considering the same car has won 10 out of 16 races in the history of the category.

I would argue that doesn't necessarily correlate to BOP and not that bold considering we've had 5 different winners this year. I've never seen anything like that, including ALMS 10 years ago. I still hate BOP, but can't think of anyone that does it better than IMSA.

Check out Indycar quali or race times if you have a chance. It is really surprising to compare to the DPi field.

[Akrapovic]

To be fair, I think the claim does stand now. I think it's quite reasonable to make that suggestion in 2018. 2017 was quite far off for most of the year. But, we've got to be fair - first year of a brand new formula. It wasn't going to be perfect, so really that's fine.

[Maelochs]

The best part of doing science on this topic is gathering data. Qualifying at noon, let's see what comes of it.

[Akrapovic]

At Watkins Glen, CORE were able to burn up the Am driver time early and use Dumas and Braun to recover the lost time. That won't work quite as well this week as they're down to one Pro and one Am. Proportionally, the Am gets more time this week, and the Pro has less time to recover. Shorter lap means they'll probably lose a lap if they started with the Am as well.

They've improved a lot and done a lot of work on simulations, hence the gap to the rest of the LMP2 field. But I suspect this will be a simple DPi win.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

At Watkins Glen, CORE were able to burn up the Am driver time early and use Dumas and Braun to recover the lost time. That won't work quite as well this week as they're down to one Pro and one Am. Proportionally, the Am gets more time this week, and the Pro has less time to recover. Shorter lap means they'll probably lose a lap if they started with the Am as well.

They've improved a lot and done a lot of work on simulations, hence the gap to the rest of the LMP2 field. But I suspect this will be a simple DPi win.

The nature of this track may mean lots of caution periods. I wouldn't put it out of the realm of another p2 win. Traffic is a killer too, that might be the biggest factor. So far it's usually only the Oreca that's competitive, but that's not their fault for making the best lmp2.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

They've improved a lot and done a lot of work on simulations, hence the gap to the rest of the LMP2 field. But I suspect this will be a simple DPi win.

And I think the victor will be in the Oreca DPI Acura. they have looked strong so far, but the Alon laid down a great lap in the JDC oreca in qualifying. If he has that pace in the race then they could also be a contender.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

Check out Indycar quali or race times if you have a chance. It is really surprising to compare to the DPi field.

do you mean in relation to the spread in time of the top 10? or laptimes?

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Good point, but I’ve seen single make categories where one team dominates.

Trick is that BoP racing is on the other side of the fair or equal argument. It's core to the cost reduction premise that BoP will offset any deficit in resources or development while single make racing specifically only ensures everyone gets the same starting platform.

I have to say that while it pretty much invalidates what I was saying about the Cadillac in isolation, having a lot of different winners isn't really my basis for good BoP anyways. The easiest way to get everyone a win is to have terrible BoP in favour of a different car every week after all.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

The easiest way to get everyone a win is to have terrible BoP in favour of a different car every week after all.

good point.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

And that's how it usually turns out. If you win one week, you might as well not show up for the next race since you won't be allowed to win again.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by joeb

do you mean in relation to the spread in time of the top 10? or laptimes?

The spread. Many times the spread across the Indycar field (quali or race) is more than DPi. Sometimes quite a bit more. My point with that is that there is a lot of race engineering and other variables that we on message boards sometimes forget about. Even some drivers click with certain tracks and some drivers are just better than everyone else, etc.