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Old 9 Aug 2018, 11:22 (Ref:3842469)   #1
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Defending Worst F1 champions

Someone on utube was saying Damon Hill was, "the worst F1 champion", then proceeded to say, "he was slower than this driver, and this driver and this driver".

But I myself don't see it like that, for I think the error is in the terminology, "worst F1 champion"

I have highlighted the error in red. I think the term, "worst" is an epithet because it makes it seem like a negative failure, rather than an achievement, but think about it properly, to be the "worst" F1 driver in history would not be a thing of shame, it would be an achievement. Think how many drivers even in fast cars, failed to become an F1 champion.

Conclusion: I myself don't think Hill was the worst F1 champion, however even if he was there are lots of drivers who would love that honour.
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Old 9 Aug 2018, 11:26 (Ref:3842470)   #2
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All of them have done what they needed to do to be champion, so itís not really fair to say who is the worst champion, even if another driver has been more deserving of a title, like Moss in 58 or Fred in 2012
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Old 9 Aug 2018, 12:31 (Ref:3842476)   #3
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Michael Schumacher was a once in generation talent. Where you list him in the all time F1 greats is up to you. But Michael Schumacher is the only thing that stopped Damon Hill from becoming a multiple WDC.

Anyway, looking back at the OP, "utube" is probably the last place that I look for sensible, balanced, informed, clever and unbiased opinions.
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Old 9 Aug 2018, 12:42 (Ref:3842478)   #4
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Anyway, looking back at the OP, "utube" is probably the last place that I look for sensible, balanced, informed, clever and unbiased opinions.
With rare exceptions, this.
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Old 9 Aug 2018, 13:01 (Ref:3842482)   #5
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Anyway, looking back at the OP, "utube" is probably the last place that I look for sensible, balanced, informed, clever and unbiased opinions.
As a student of critical thinking, occasionally a topic will come up I choose to address sourced from uninformed silly people on utube and the likes.

However you can find balanced, informed and clever opinions on utube also. I expect since cleverness and stupidity are ubiquitous, to find a contingent of uninformed views any place, and agree it is more probable to find more such views at utube.

So I myself was not claiming utube is the best place for balanced views. I am already aware that this guy was pretty much in the, "idiot" group, but it's still okay to address idiotic claims and expose them to a more balanced audience. let's face it, most comments occur on the likes of utube because there are many F1 videos, some videos pertain to individual drivers, and you will get haters making the same common errors.

The most common error a hater makes is slothful induction fallacy, which means they will take one or two examples of a driver, where they performed poorly, and ignore all of the majority evidence they were not poor drivers.

Example of mistake;

"To look at Schumacher's skills, we have to look at Monaco in the wet in 96 when he put it in the barrier, and when he shunted Coulthard at Spa in 98".

That is the most common type of reason people use on utube when they are arguing that a driver was poor, they will select the one or two occasions and magnify them or magnify a poor season they had, and ignore all of their achievements.

Last edited by MTW; 9 Aug 2018 at 13:07.
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Old 9 Aug 2018, 13:04 (Ref:3842485)   #6
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I'd rather not discuss the opinions of fools and imbeciles, thank you very much.
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Old 9 Aug 2018, 13:08 (Ref:3842487)   #7
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I'd rather not discuss the opinions of fools and imbeciles, thank you very much.
Yup.

Or try and reason with them!
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Old 9 Aug 2018, 13:32 (Ref:3842495)   #8
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Loving the Villeneuve avatar. I wish I could find out how to add an avatar, for some reason it has me foxed even when I looked how to do it. I make F1 models and would like to display my favourite one as my picture.
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Old 9 Aug 2018, 13:36 (Ref:3842498)   #9
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I get it now, I can only add a picture when I have 250 posts. I see I am making one post a month average which isn't quite enough. Lol
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Old 9 Aug 2018, 14:05 (Ref:3842508)   #10
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Eh, I don't like the term "worst", or any variety. Any world champion has to at least be good.

In saying that, I do like Damon Hill but if he hadn't won the title I doubt many would have said he totally deserved it. He only won it in 1996 because Schumachers car was blowing up on formation laps, his 1995 teammate who was beginning to give him real trouble was shipped off to McLaren, and his new teammate was a rookie who ran him closer to the title than he really should have. And now people say JFV really wasn't that good, so I think that really does play down Damon more.

I like Damon. Good driver. Has some weird opinions on TV Every so often but whatever. Good World Champion, but can't really say much more than that.
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Old 9 Aug 2018, 14:10 (Ref:3842512)   #11
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This is sort of on topic and I might as well write it to increase my post count so I get an avatar displayed.

My view of Damon Hill as a champion. (since he was singled out as the worst F1 champion by that person on utube.)

- I am biased, this is the first point I make. I am a Damon Hill fan. I watched F1 in 1995 and nearly cried when he lost the championship and at that time hated Schumacher for spoiling my boyhood dreams. Lol.

However since then I obviously now know Schumacher was the great driver, one of the greatest. Hill was not. Hill now I look back objectively, was a good driver who had moments of brilliance balanced by a fair few moments of slight ineptitude/misjudgements. The latter was in relation to his overtaking ability. He was not a great overtaker, and sometimes fumbled his moves because he was not aggressive, as a driver, he was a smooth driver who didn't like to get caught up in on-track battles.

Unfortunately he had a bad season in 1995 which the F1 fans can perhaps pay too much attention to. We have to remember that he was up against Schumacher which is a very unfortunate time to be going for the title in F1 given not many go up against the GOAT. (or A GOAT). There are several things people might not notice at first glance about this season.

- Williams must have lost minutes in the pits to benetton. If you watch the 95 season review you will nearly always see that Schumacher and Hill would go in the pits together and Hill would exist ten seconds behind, sometimes losing places.

- Hill seemed to succumb to psychological pressure from Schumacher who had said he struggled to overtake, and the previous season suggested Hill wasn't world class. This was clever because it would seem he got Hill to concentrate on his own areas of weakness.

- Most people think the williams was by far the fastest car. In fact looking at the revie of the 94 and 95 season the truth of the matter is that the benetton wasn't always lagging behind, on some tracks it seemed to have the pace over the williams, which is something people forget or discount.

Conclusion: The unfair thing is that Hill is always compared to Schumacher because he faced Schumacher. But Hill had moments of brilliance. A lot of people thought in 1996 that Villeneuve would overcome Hill once he got used to the williams but Hill pretty much had the better of him that year. That is not to discredit Villeneuve, for Villeneuve was a fast driver. There were also occasions Hill drove well in the wet but because he wasn't Schumacher, people tend to not pay attention to those occasions, but had Schumacher won in those wet races they would of course call him the rain master. Hill dominated in the wet in Brazil 1996, beat Schumacher in Suzuka 1994 on aggregate, and won spa 1998, (in a Jordan with a dry weather set up IIRC). He also almost drove an Arrows to victory in 1997, and qualified that poor car close to the front of the grid on several occasions. He also was a charger at times. Nurburgring 1995 was a great charge from Hill but later he unfortunately botched his race up. He also charged down berger in Germany 1996. He also charged fairly well in Spa 1995 and finished 2nd from 8th on the grid but his own performance was not acknowledged because Schumacher came 1st from 16th on the grid.
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Old 9 Aug 2018, 14:21 (Ref:3842514)   #12
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Conclusion: The unfair thing is that Hill is always compared to Schumacher because he faced Schumacher. But Hill had moments of brilliance. A lot of people thought in 1996 that Villeneuve would overcome Hill once he got used to the williams but Hill pretty much had the better of him that year. That is not to discredit Villeneuve, for Villeneuve was a fast driver. There were also occasions Hill drove well in the wet but because he wasn't Schumacher, people tend to not pay attention to those occasions, but had Schumacher won in those wet races they would of course call him the rain master. Hill dominated in the wet in Brazil 1996, beat Schumacher in Suzuka 1994 on aggregate, and won spa 1998, (in a Jordan with a dry weather set up IIRC). He also almost drove an Arrows to victory in 1997, and qualified that poor car close to the front of the grid on several occasions. He also was a charger at times. Nurburgring 1995 was a great charge from Hill but later he unfortunately botched his race up. He also charged down berger in Germany 1996. He also charged fairly well in Spa 1995 and finished 2nd from 8th on the grid but his own performance was not acknowledged because Schumacher came 1st from 16th on the grid.
The problem with highlight things like Damon finishing second at Spa is that his team mate was leading Spa before the Williams gearbox failed. It was the same in Argentina, same (although wheel bearing) at Monza. Damon wasn't really any better than DC, and few will argue DC should've been champion (and rightly so).

You can say he beat JV, but he should've beaten JV. He was a rookie to F1 and the team. If he didn't beat JV it would've been embarrassing. As it is, he almost didn't.

There's nothing particularly wrong with Damon, he just wasn't that special. He was capable of a handful of excellent drives, but these are the sort of drives, but not stringing them together. The stars aligned for his 1996 title, and that's all that's needed.
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Old 9 Aug 2018, 14:29 (Ref:3842516)   #13
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The problem with highlight things like Damon finishing second at Spa is that his team mate was leading Spa before the Williams gearbox failed.
I'm not sure this is a consequential point given that Coulthard started ahead of Hill, and if Coulthard was fast in one race, faster than Hill, it wouldn't follow that Hill was poor anyway. In context my point was that on several occasions Hill charged, meaning he was many seconds back and closed the gap. The point is, drivers who can charge have good speed. Hill also charged down Schumacher in 1995 at silverstone, before Hill botched a move. Hill beat Coulthard and Villeneuve on points accumulated in 1995 and 1996.

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Originally Posted by Akrapovic
You can say he beat JV, but he should've beaten JV. He was a rookie to F1 and the team. If he didn't beat JV it would've been embarrassing. As it is, he almost didn't.

There's nothing particularly wrong with Damon, he just wasn't that special
Well to say Hill wasn't special, isn't really relevant unless I had claimed he was special which I clearly didn't, so you imply a bit of a strawman fallacy there, by putting words in my mouth.

Also to say Hill, "should" have beaten Villeneuve, well that's a matter of opinion. Villeneuve was already a champion in another motor sport which isn't an indication that he was a slow driver. Villeneuve shown he was a fast driver in 1996 and 1997. The cars he had after that only show that he couldn't make a slow car go fast, that's all.

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Damon wasn't really any better than DC, and few will argue DC should've been champion (and rightly so)
That's probably a fair point. I think DC was a very good driver, I wouldn't claim that Hill was much better than DC, and that wasn't my claim, but winning the title and finishing the season with more accumulated points that your teammate, does count because you can't accumulate a lot of points over your teammate by accident. (Meaning as evidence, to beat someone over a season length has to be considered as significant, unless there is some mitigating factor)
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Old 9 Aug 2018, 14:38 (Ref:3842518)   #14
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I'm not really replying to "you" as such, more a general post about the "worst" world champion. Still don't like that term, because no world champion can be considered bad, but I don't know how else to word it. I don't think its a strawman to suggest he isn't that special when the entire thread is about world champions, who are generally considered pretty special in any discipline. You didn't say it, but the thread is kinda about it.

Remember: If DC started ahead of Hill, that isn't a lucky draw. That's he out qualified him, something he did quite a bit. And for sure you can accumulate points over your teammate by accident - for example, if your teammate has 3 car failures whilst leading, he loses 30 points (but only finished 20 behind his teammate...who gained points from his teammates failures, etc).

Now obviously this is ifs ands and buts and you can argue alternate universes until the cows come home, but it's the old thing of - championship standings don't tell the whole story. But, they are the only thing that matters.

The 1995 championship tells you DH got absolutely humped by MS. It doesn't tell you that DC matched him quite a bit, but DH was capable of some amazing comeback drives that we've never really seen DC (or JV for that matter) do.
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Old 9 Aug 2018, 14:38 (Ref:3842519)   #15
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I think Button qualifies way more for this than Hill.
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