[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Steve McQ

God damn it. Why shitty F1 ideas always have to come all the way down to endurance. Pit-stops, and now single tire supplier ? What's next ? 300 km races ? This is a good idea to reduce costs no ?

What this tyre supplier idea has to do with F1? I can't even name another sports car series besides Super GT with open tyre development (and besides GTLM in IMSA).

This single-supplier tyre idea must be an additional way to close the gap between privateers and OEMs. Currently big issue is that the LMP1 tyres by Michelin are designed for AWD/hybrid use and the front tyres are unsuitable for LMP1-Ls. With all the cars becoming the same in this sense this wouldn't be an issue in the future, but if tyre development remained open, the OEMs could still pay more and get better and exclusive compounds, and with all other performance areas so restricted, it could become even the biggest differentiator.

[FormulaFox]

Personally, I'm looking forward to seeing how different manufacturers handle the engine matter. Limited power, but open engine architecture and apparently no regulation on torque or revs. Engine tuning to find the ideal rev range to use that 700HP effectively is gonna produce a wide variety of engines, and the lower power(and front-drive-only) nature of the hybrid will also bring the amount of torque you can get out of the ICE back into play - that was Audi's big performance advantage when they first brought in the diesel, and the advent of (nearly)unrestricted hybrids brought an end to that advantage. It'll be nice to see that come back.

[rdjones]

This from DSC is well worth a read - http://www.dailysportscar.com/2018/1...gulations.html

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by rdjones

This from DSC is well worth a read - http://www.dailysportscar.com/2018/1...gulations.html

lol 3.24-3.25 taget lap time?
hope they're talking about racetrim pace, do they forget that this year lmp2 pole was 3.24.8?

a 700hp+270hp powered car running so slow at le mans?
basically 0 downforce.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by canaglia

lol 3.24-3.25 taget lap time?
hope they're talking about racetrim pace, do they forget that this year lmp2 pole was 3.24.8?

a 700hp+270hp powered car running so slow at le mans?
basically 0 downforce.

They said in the article that lmp2 will be slowed down and it will be better for the class.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by joeb

They said in the article that lmp2 will be slowed down and it will be better for the class.

Yeah read that; likely lmp2 cars will lose 50hp at least and gain some kg for sure; it's sad but is not a big problem.
A >900hp prototype lapping so slow at le mans means that new cars will have an awful amount of downforce.
2007 diesels had about 700hp and pole was in 3.26.

More than 10 years of aero development to throw in the bin

[deggis]

Originally Posted by canaglia

Yeah read that; likely lmp2 cars will lose 50hp at least and gain some kg for sure; it's sad but is not a big problem.
A >900hp prototype lapping so slow at le mans means that new cars will have an awful amount of downforce.
2007 diesels had about 700hp and pole was in 3.26.

More than 10 years of aero development to throw in the bin

The one benefit I see is that low downforce and high power could make the cars look a bit more "lively" on the track and not so planted and on-rails like the current ones.

[Steve McQ]

They should cut 100-120 bhp and 25-50 kg on the P2, and increase their fuel tank capacity. 35 minutes a stint is really too short for an endurance race car.

Oh wait...

[TheMightyM]

The ACO/WEC is really trying to find a delicate balance here — a formula that appeals to manufacturers, niche constructors, and privateers. That they’re now talking about even lower costs (20 million euros instead of the previous 25 million euros listed earlier for a manufacturer) while still not being able to get IMSA on board is significant. Sound like there were serious cost concerns among the ACO/WEC’s target market at the higher amount.

And I wonder whether if even at the lower amount the hypercar forumla is sustainable for niche constructors and privateers — 20 million euro or 16 million euro is a lot of money for those companies/teams.

I find really strange Graham Goodwin’s point that slowing down LMP2s would (significantly) help the LMP2 marketplace. The limit on the ACO/WEC ecosystem ultimately is the number of spots on the grid at Le Mans. Having a less-powerful LMP2 presumably reduces costs and you could argue helps sales — but only if you have someplace to race.

If the hypercar concept succeeds, that leaves less spots for LMP2s at Le Mans and on the WEC grid. Unless the long-term idea is to replace GTE with hypercars…

[carbsmith]

16m to do lap times the same as with 3m now. Sounds like a great sell for privateers.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by TheMightyM

I find really strange Graham Goodwin’s point that slowing down LMP2s would (significantly) help the LMP2 marketplace. The limit on the ACO/WEC ecosystem ultimately is the number of spots on the grid at Le Mans. Having a less-powerful LMP2 presumably reduces costs and you could argue helps sales — but only if you have someplace to race.

I think he implies that just slowing down the Oreca would be enough, thereby persuading people to consider other chassis...

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Also that 3:25 is clearly bullshit. Anybody remember the 3:30 target that the hybrid cars were aimed at? These cars will undoubtedly go faster than 3:20.

I don't like all the restrictions, especially the stupid ones on testing etc. Cost control is stupid and they're stupid for trying it but apparently it's needed for people to show up.

I don't mind most other things, although I'm iffy on limiting ERS performance and limiting aero development (another thing that's never going to work). I do like that they finally embraced the idea of forcing manufacturers to sell the hybrid systems for 2 million a pop. It seems to me with that rule in place further restrictions on hybrid systems are rather pointless and should be let go.

Also no mention of active aerodynamics, which was one of the things I really liked about the first batch of regulations put out. I wonder where it went?

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by TheMightyM

The ACO/WEC is really trying to find a delicate balance here — a formula that appeals to manufacturers, niche constructors, and privateers. That they’re now talking about even lower costs (20 million euros instead of the previous 25 million euros listed earlier for a manufacturer) while still not being able to get IMSA on board is significant. Sound like there were serious cost concerns among the ACO/WEC’s target market at the higher amount.

And I wonder whether if even at the lower amount the hypercar forumla is sustainable for niche constructors and privateers — 20 million euro or 16 million euro is a lot of money for those companies/teams.

I find really strange Graham Goodwin’s point that slowing down LMP2s would (significantly) help the LMP2 marketplace. The limit on the ACO/WEC ecosystem ultimately is the number of spots on the grid at Le Mans. Having a less-powerful LMP2 presumably reduces costs and you could argue helps sales — but only if you have someplace to race.

If the hypercar concept succeeds, that leaves less spots for LMP2s at Le Mans and on the WEC grid. Unless the long-term idea is to replace GTE with hypercars…

It does exist indeed.... it's called DPi

just take a lmp2 spec carbon tub, build a hypercar look bodywork around the way mazda did, fit inside a 650hp turbo or big NA, bespoke or road derived. Take a standard kers as base and let some development room.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

But DPi sucks.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

But DPi sucks.

Disagree, IMHO IMSA has been the best sportscar series in last 2 seasons.

[TheMightyM]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

Also no mention of active aerodynamics, which was one of the things I really liked about the first batch of regulations put out. I wonder where it went?

Presumably a victim of the ACO/WEC’s desire to further limit cost.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

I'll definitely need to ask Graham about that. Does he work like Beetlejuice or how do we summon him?

[Akrapovic]

€16m budget for privateers.

"lmao"

Edit: Sharing of pit crews mean we are definitely not going back to the old/better pit stop format of fuel and tyres separately. It'd take far too long with stacked cars.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

What's funny about that? Does anyone know Rebellion's budget for this season?

[carbsmith]

Slower LMP2's upside is that the cars are considered too fast for genuine Am drivers at the moment, I imagine.

[Akrapovic]

The budget for a WEC LMP2 team is said to be €5-6m (around €1m higher than ELMS). If the jump from one class to another is to triple the budget, whilst dropping the silver driver requirement (which often brings in money), in a series where sponsorship isn't a big payer due to limited viewers (outside of Le Mans), then that's not going to end well.

Even if Rebellion are scraping around the €16m mark, that's the top team. And if you aim your new budgets at the top teams, then where does that leave everyone else? Outside of F1 and maybe Ganassi and Penske IndyCar teams (which are almost semi-works and have budgets of approx $15m a year), no privateer teams are running budgets that high.

Edit: Also, the reason LMP2s got sped up is that they were too close the GTE cars in speed. That meant that LMP2 drivers were having to dive-bomb into braking areas. If we cut the speed of the LMP2s, we reintroduce that problem. And that was over the speeds of the pre-evo GTE cars. I'm not sure slowing LMP2 is a particularly good idea.

A good idea is forced commercial hybrids. That's been suggested a lot on here (and in the F1 forum) for a few years.

[TF110]

The thing is the rules limit development so you get what you get and that's that for the duration of the rules. No reason to do excessive development and redesigns. So it's like an lmp2 in that sense. You make or purchase your car and it's within this performance window then you're set.

There's things about this set of rules so far that seriously turn me off. First is a nearly spec tire. This seems obvious to me that the ACO are helping their French countrymen, Michelin even more with a stranglehold on the class/sport. This is not the right way to go. I think two tire manufacturers are a better idea and leave it up to teams to make the choice. The second is the targeted lap time of 3:24-3:25. If that's race pace, fine. But if it's ultimate pace as in qualifying and fastest laps, it's too slow and it'll back up lmp2 more into GTE which needs to go faster imo. They just sped up lmp2 to slow them back down. Third thing is this insistence on using hybrids for EVERYONE. Then on top of it the hybrids will mostly be the exact same; battery powered, fwd only, limited output.

The reason I watch lmp1 over DPi is because the development and the freedom. Of everything F1 gets wrong, it at least has that part right. The saving grace for this new class for me so far is MAYBE we get cool looking cars and different engine types. With that hopefully it brings back unique sounds instead of the same muted turbo buzz we hear now.

[GasperG]

I don't like the fact that ICE power is 700 HP and hybrid 270 HP, I would call this a "soft" hybrid. Why not keep the almost 50:50 power split that Toyota and Porsche were running, the massive electric boost was making a big difference and was definitely good to see from a spectator point of view.

[Tique]

3.24-3.25 for 20M€ is a kind of joke. Today, the LMP2 are close to this for 5-6M€. Why spending such money for the same result ?
I am affraid that the IMSA is right by not following the ACO.
And I am affraid that we will not see a lot of people signing for this...

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by TF110

The thing is the rules limit development so you get what you get and that's that for the duration of the rules. No reason to do excessive development and redesigns. So it's like an lmp2 in that sense. You make or purchase your car and it's within this performance window then you're set.

There's things about this set of rules so far that seriously turn me off. First is a nearly spec tire. This seems obvious to me that the ACO are helping their French countrymen, Michelin even more with a stranglehold on the class/sport. This is not the right way to go. I think two tire manufacturers are a better idea and leave it up to teams to make the choice. The second is the targeted lap time of 3:24-3:25. If that's race pace, fine. But if it's ultimate pace as in qualifying and fastest laps, it's too slow and it'll back up lmp2 more into GTE which needs to go faster imo. They just sped up lmp2 to slow them back down. Third thing is this insistence on using hybrids for EVERYONE. Then on top of it the hybrids will mostly be the exact same; battery powered, fwd only, limited output.

The reason I watch lmp1 over DPi is because the development and the freedom. Of everything F1 gets wrong, it at least has that part right. The saving grace for this new class for me so far is MAYBE we get cool looking cars and different engine types. With that hopefully it brings back unique sounds instead of the same muted turbo buzz we hear now.

Although I don't mind DPi as much as you, I agree with this. Limited development...ok, but high privateer costs to go with it. Spec tyre, and we all know which brand that will be. Slower cars, which backs up the classes and brings back the same problem. Same solution for everyone. Add the bad pit stop regulations to the top of this and it's all a bit meh.

Single pit stop crews for all races except Le Mans. That's a lot of temporary pit crews for one race.

And of course IMSA won't follow this - the costs are still a lot higher than the current DPis, which is working well for them.