Verstappen: Combo of Senna and Schumacher?

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Are they expecting Renault to give them a big sack of dosh to get Ricciardo out of his contract?

As I get older, I find myself getting more and more easily confused.
I thought the deal is already done.....

[E.B]

Originally Posted by jimclark

As I get older, I find myself getting more and more easily confused.
I thought the deal is already done.....

Yes the deal was long dusted and confirmed. I think that the notion behind the post was more based on Horner's refusal to allow Danny to test for Renault after season end (as with any other team releasing drivers, such as Ferrari allowing Sauber to use Kimi, Williams allowing Stroll at FI etc etc down pitlane)

Perhaps it was thought by Horner that Renault might pay an extra fee to Red Bull for the early release from Danny's RBR Contract early to allow him to test.

In reality Horner was just being his usual arrogant obnoxious self righteous and unpleasant lowlife self that we expect from him. ("Danny has a contract with RBR until 31st December blah blah blah".) So did all the other drivers released to their new teams without issue.

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by E.B

Yes the deal was long dusted and confirmed. I think that the notion behind the post was more based on Horner's refusal to allow Danny to test for Renault after season end (as with any other team releasing drivers, such as Ferrari allowing Sauber to use Kimi, Williams allowing Stroll at FI etc etc down pitlane)

Perhaps it was thought by Horner that Renault might pay an extra fee to Red Bull for the early release from Danny's RBR Contract early to allow him to test.

In reality Horner was just being his usual arrogant obnoxious self righteous and unpleasant lowlife self that we expect from him. ("Danny has a contract with RBR until 31st December blah blah blah".) So did all the other drivers released to their new teams without issue.

Aaahhh, but of course.
I thought the ink had already dried on the new contract but hadn't taken into consideration when the old one expired. Thank you.

[Casper]

A bit of a thread dredge.....I wrote earlier in this thread the reasons that Verstappen might not win a world championship and I don't normally have knee jerk reactions to things that happen like on the weekend but you have to wonder if Leclerc has added to the hurdles Verstappen will have to overcome to be an F1 WDC. I am more than ever doubtful that Verstappen will be a WDC for a lot of reasons and one of them came third in Bahrain.

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by Casper

A bit of a thread dredge.....I wrote earlier in this thread the reasons that Verstappen might not win a world championship and I don't normally have knee jerk reactions to things that happen like on the weekend but you have to wonder if Leclerc has added to the hurdles Verstappen will have to overcome to be an F1 WDC. I am more than ever doubtful that Verstappen will be a WDC for a lot of reasons and one of them came third in Bahrain.

The real hurdle for Verstappen is that, after years of not having an competitive powerunit, he now finally has one but now their chassis is inadequate and he know's it's probably fundamental enough to risk too many points at the first half of the championship.

You can see his frustration, each season starting with a car that is not competitive enough. Red Bull better get their act together.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

The real hurdle for Verstappen is that, after years of not having an competitive powerunit, he now finally has one but now their chassis is inadequate and he know's it's probably fundamental enough to risk too many points at the first half of the championship.

You can see his frustration, each season starting with a car that is not competitive enough. Red Bull better get their act together.

The car was a race-winner at the beginning of 2018.
Verstappen was not.

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by Skam85

The car was a race-winner at the beginning of 2018.
Verstappen was not.

You are correct. After making sure development was not finished at the last possible moment, RB started 2018 in better form (perhaps not an easy race winner, but close enough) and it was indeed mostly Max's own doing. To be fair that is probably his only weak period in F1 do far (apart from the occasional Monaco screw up).

[ApexTurtle]

Originally Posted by Skam85

The car was a race-winner at the beginning of 2018.

I disagree, that win in China was simply a case of profiting from other people's mistakes. The car itself was nowhere near victory pace. And I also disagree with the person who said Verstappen now has a better power unit. The evidence so far points to the predicted outcome that the switch to Honda has been a step backwards. I think Verstappen's talent is the only reason he's not under threat from Renault, Haas and McLaren just yet.

[steve_r]

Well, he has a contract with Red Bull until the end of 2020 if the internet is to be believed. IMO he should have held off signing the extension until he knew just how good or bad the Honda units were going to be, but hey what do I know.

Surely at the end of this contract he could engineer himself into Mercedes or Ferrari seat if he is still finishing 4th or 5th most races. Silly season could be fun if this all starts developing.

[S griffin]

Atm, he’s doing better than Gasly. Early days I admit, but it shows the talent Max has

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Atm, he’s doing better than Gasly. Early days I admit, but it shows the talent Max has

Or is it just showing that Gasly was promoted to the senior team too soon? Ricciardo leaving Red Bull left them with a problem - Verstappen wouldn't have Sainz alongside him so their hand was forced and they had to put Gasly in the car sooner than they'd have liked. The fact that they had to bring Hartley back last season for Torro Rosso and this seasons Torro Rosso lineup is the already rejected Albon and the multi rejected Kvyat - which suggests the Red Bull talent pool is running dry.

[gert]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

Or is it just showing that Gasly was promoted to the senior team too soon? Ricciardo leaving Red Bull left them with a problem - Verstappen wouldn't have Sainz alongside him so their hand was forced and they had to put Gasly in the car sooner than they'd have liked. The fact that they had to bring Hartley back last season for Torro Rosso and this seasons Torro Rosso lineup is the already rejected Albon and the multi rejected Kvyat - which suggests the Red Bull talent pool is running dry.

They're all just placeholders for Ticktum surely?

But the next question is: are there any talents in the pipeline after Ticktum?

Originally Posted by steve_r

Well, he has a contract with Red Bull until the end of 2020 if the internet is to be believed. <snip>
Surely at the end of this contract he could engineer himself into Mercedes or Ferrari seat if he is still finishing 4th or 5th most races.

Or not. If Leclerc proves to be the real deal, what is to say Ferrari doesn't chose any of their other youngsters to replace Vettel (probably). The better Leclerc does, the higher I think they will just look in their own pool of drivers
* Leclerc may be a multiple race winner at the end of 2000, maybe even world champion
* Schumacher jr or Alesi jr. may have won the F2 championship by that time. Maybe even both of them.
* they also have Giovinazzi, who may have proved himself (or may be dropped altogether)
* a bit further down, there's also Armstrong and Schwarzman, currently in F3. They may be in F2 by 2020 and even win it.
* I think I forgot at least 1 or maybe even 2 names

If Leclerc does suprise, and the youngsters do well, they may not need Verstappen.

Same can be said of Mercedes: they have Ocon and Russell and they may prefer to promote 1 or both if needed.


Or not.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by ApexTurtle

I disagree, that win in China was simply a case of profiting from other people's mistakes. The car itself was nowhere near victory pace.

Ricciardo passed a Mercedes on merit.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by steve_r

Well, he has a contract with Red Bull until the end of 2020 if the internet is to be believed. IMO he should have held off signing the extension until he knew just how good or bad the Honda units were going to be, but hey what do I know.

Surely at the end of this contract he could engineer himself into Mercedes or Ferrari seat if he is still finishing 4th or 5th most races. Silly season could be fun if this all starts developing.

That is a major problem for him as he is a hot head who does himself no favours at times and I am supposing that teams do not like hot heads who try and remonstrate with other drivers after a race. Another thing is every other driver now knows that it is easy to wind him up which is not a good thing. Alonso is an awesome driver but he could not get a seat in a winning team.

[ApexTurtle]

Originally Posted by Skam85

Ricciardo passed a Mercedes on merit.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, but Ricciardo had much faster tires which is the only reason he could make that pass.

And it helped that his teammate who should have won that race screwed up

[steve_r]

Originally Posted by gert

Or not. If Leclerc proves to be the real deal, what is to say Ferrari doesn't chose any of their other youngsters to replace Vettel (probably). The better Leclerc does, the higher I think they will just look in their own pool of drivers
* Leclerc may be a multiple race winner at the end of 2000, maybe even world champion
* Schumacher jr or Alesi jr. may have won the F2 championship by that time. Maybe even both of them.
* they also have Giovinazzi, who may have proved himself (or may be dropped altogether)
* a bit further down, there's also Armstrong and Schwarzman, currently in F3. They may be in F2 by 2020 and even win it.
* I think I forgot at least 1 or maybe even 2 names

If Leclerc does suprise, and the youngsters do well, they may not need Verstappen.

Same can be said of Mercedes: they have Ocon and Russell and they may prefer to promote 1 or both if needed.


Or not.

You might be right. So all the more reason why Verstsappen ought to be looking to ensure that he is in the best car on the grid whilst most people still rate him as the next big thing. Otherwise, before we know it a different young and upcoming driver might have stolen the headlines with some impressive performances.

Senna was ruthless on the track, but also off the track in negotiating drives - he left Lotus and McLaren - both of which were successful / race winning cars at the time, but perhaps not the very best car on the grid (hmmm, which current team would you put in that category in 2017 & 2018 & 2019??) because he saw that a potential WDC winning car was available elsewhere.

[chunterer]

If Albon carries on the way he's going he could easily end up at mother ship next year instead on Gasly.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by chunterer

If Albon carries on the way he's going he could easily end up at mother ship next year instead on Gasly.

To be honest, although it's early days so far, if things continue the way they appear to be going I wouldn't be surprised to see a seat swap before the next season. (Let's face it, it wouldn't be the first time would it?)

[Casper]

Originally Posted by gert

They're all just placeholders for Ticktum surely?

But the next question is: are there any talents in the pipeline after Ticktum?


Or not. If Leclerc proves to be the real deal, what is to say Ferrari doesn't chose any of their other youngsters to replace Vettel (probably). The better Leclerc does, the higher I think they will just look in their own pool of drivers
* Leclerc may be a multiple race winner at the end of 2000, maybe even world champion
* Schumacher jr or Alesi jr. may have won the F2 championship by that time. Maybe even both of them.
* they also have Giovinazzi, who may have proved himself (or may be dropped altogether)
* a bit further down, there's also Armstrong and Schwarzman, currently in F3. They may be in F2 by 2020 and even win it.
* I think I forgot at least 1 or maybe even 2 names

If Leclerc does suprise, and the youngsters do well, they may not need Verstappen.

Same can be said of Mercedes: they have Ocon and Russell and they may prefer to promote 1 or both if needed.


Or not.

You outline the problems he faces better than me and the more I look at it the more I think he may never make it due to circumstances and not lack of talent. If Vettel walked at the end of this year he will still be contracted to RB but if he could get into the Ferrari I suspect Leclerc would mare than have his measure. I simply do not think Ferrari are going to even look at him while they have Lerclerc and if that is the case then he has no option other than MB and if their record is anything to go by they don't employ drivers who have baggage such as a bad attitude.

[chillibowl]

if/when LH and SV retire (and Kimi - respect to F1Pete) we are potentially looking at a grid with no title holders.

of course CL and VB could have won one or more by the time SV and LH retire, but if they haven't, i dont see how their respective team's could ignore a proven race winner like Max (or DanRic for that matter) as a partner...i suppose there could also be other race winners by then to choose from as well but, imo, they wont go with an unproven youngster imo.

teams like this need to have at least one WDC on the payroll, but failing that, it has to at the very least be two proven race winners. i could say their heritage demands it but its more like their budget size requires it!

along the lines of Ferrari's 2007 pairing of Massa and Kimi...Alonso had already committed to Mclaren (who planned on pairing a WDC driver with a rookie for 2007) so he wasnt available so they grabbed Kimi and not

(another case of Alonso in the wrong place at the wrong time....much like showing up for one off test while it just happens to start raining in the desert!)

i suppose, Williams 1997 would be an exception to this theory but they basically decided to never pay another driver again that year so it doesnt count!

[ApexTurtle]

Verstappen has plenty of time. His talent is obvious. He just made the wrong choice sticking with Red Bull for this year and the next, but there are plenty more chances to come. Who knows how the deck will be stacked come 2021.

[S griffin]

I think Max realises his time will come when it happens and is just learning to get better with age

[chunder]

I really do not see what all the fuss is about with Max, yes he was young, but he has a lot of experience now and still makes karting level mistakes.

He is a great driver, but better than Lewis, Vettel in his prime? Not really, not yet. And certainly not a patch on Alain, Ayrton or MS.

In my eyes Red Bull lost their number 1, not kept him.

[S griffin]

Remind me again when Max has had a car to consistently challenge Ferrari and Merc? He makes mistakes yes, but he also made an immediate impact when he joined RBR and has been up there since. And I find it laughable that you are comparing him to Lewis and Seb at their peak. Max is still not quite at his peak yet, wait till he gets there. Hopefully in a car to challenge for the title too

[chunterer]

Trouble is Max needs the right equipment sooner rather than later or he could risk ending up
as one of those unfulfilled talents as other drivers with momentum or fortunate contract timing get there before him.