How to fix F1?

[Aysedasi]

My son's Clio certainly makes A LOT of noise.........

[Akrapovic]

Be a good father and help him pay for the exhaust it sounds like it needs then.

[Aysedasi]

I've helped him pay for everything else, so he's on his own with the exhaust..... He's taking it to LM this year, so you'll probably hear it from there.......

[Richard C]

So... I have a point that I am sure will not please some. Part of the problem with F1 is illustrated in this thread. The fan's can't agree on what they want. I am not sure if I could put together a short list of things people agree on. You would "think" it would be something like "good racing", but I doubt we could even agree on how to define that.

Richard

[Aysedasi]

We probably could...... Oh, but then there's Jim.......

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

We probably could...... Oh, but then there's Jim.......

A) If you're referring to me...no caps in the name please. (I use none in my screen name outa' respect for Jim(my).
B) Again, if you're referring to me...you're not sucking me in to this one.
C) If it's James your "driver"...have at it...'not my "speed"....

I digress. (I know...as I should. )

[bella]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

So... I have a point that I am sure will not please some. Part of the problem with F1 is illustrated in this thread. The fan's can't agree on what they want.

exactly. so following what the cheeses think is the good of the sport is as good as anything really. the aim is to sustain it till it falls over, or ice engines become a thing of the past.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by jimclark

A) If you're referring to me...no caps in the name please. (I use none in my screen name outa' respect for Jim(my).
B) Again, if you're referring to me...you're not sucking me in to this one.
C) If it's James your "driver"...have at it...'not my "speed"....

I digress. (I know...as I should. )

It was you - jim.....

[ASCII Man]

They can fix F1 by making it better.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bella

exactly. so following what the cheeses think is the good of the sport is as good as anything really. the aim is to sustain it till it falls over, or ice engines become a thing of the past.

I used to give "those in charge" a harder time. My position generally was "why don't they do X instead of Y?" I am still very confident that X is correct (and obviously so) and that Y is a train-wreck (and obviously so), but now fully understand there are people who are equally passionate about Y. Now I understand they are completely in a no win situation.



Richard

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

It was you - jim.....

jim'll fix it.

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

jim'll fix it.

Naaahhh.
Nuttin's broke.
A little fine tuning on the other hand....

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by jimclark

Naaahhh.
Nuttin's broke.
A little fine tuning on the other hand....

A turn on the front wing, that sometimes works.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

So... I have a point that I am sure will not please some. Part of the problem with F1 is illustrated in this thread. The fan's can't agree on what they want. I am not sure if I could put together a short list of things people agree on. You would "think" it would be something like "good racing", but I doubt we could even agree on how to define that.

Richard

A point I have made before in this thread somewhere in the distant past. Other major series such as NASCAR are suffering the same problem. Before the internet allowed this broad discussion people watched what was put before them with very little opportunity to comment. I wonder where F1 would be without the opportunity for mass comment, just getting on with the job I suspect and we would read about it in the monthly magazines quite happily.

[S griffin]

I think it’s more because the rule makers like overcomplicating things instead of going for the simple solution

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I think it’s more because the rule makers like overcomplicating things instead of going for the simple solution

I find life to be more complicated than it looks to be on the surface, but I will bite... what is the simple solution?

Richard

[chunterer]

One of my pet hates is that 'complicated' word!! Seems to get overused by people these days as a kind of disclaimer for something bad they are about to do!!

If the tweaks don't work then Ross and co know they will need to implement more significant changes for 2021.

I am convinced that a simpler regs which cost less will attract new entrants.

Part of the reason there aren't any new teams at present is because of the performance and I suspect political clout Merc has.

FIA should publish the regs that are required to reduce cost and better racing and if certain entities don't like it too bad.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I find life to be more complicated than it looks to be on the surface, but I will bite... what is the simple solution?



Richard

Well instead of DRS, let’s reduce downforce for starters

[Richard C]

chunterer, I am not picking on you, but rather using your post as seed for my comments. Also, we are 60+ pages into this thread and I have no doubt much of this has been debated and discussed already. I know for sure I have posted similar content as below before. But that is OK as otherwise the discussion dies.

Originally Posted by chunterer

One of my pet hates is that 'complicated' word!! Seems to get overused by people these days as a kind of disclaimer for something bad they are about to do!!

I have the opposite thought. I view "complicated" as being realistic. When someone talks about complexity, I am more likely to believe they actually understand the problem at hand. A favorite of mine is a paraphrase of an Einstein quote. The paraphrase is...

"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler"

My pet peeve is the desire for people to ignore the natural complexity that exists (usually because the level of complexity is uncomfortable for them) and to replace reality with "simpler" explanations that just don't work. Ultimately then the resulting "thing" that is based upon the "simple" explanation fails because... it doesn't model reality.

So I cringe when people ask for "simple". Because I feel they have little understanding of reality. With that said, I do believe that things CAN be overly complex and can be wound back to a simpler solution.

Originally Posted by chunterer

I am convinced that a simpler regs which cost less will attract new entrants.

On the surface that sounds fine, and it is vague enough that many can nod their head in agreement, raise you on their shoulders in celebration and throw a party in your honor. But I doubt everyone is actually holding the same thought in their respective heads. What exactly do you mean by "simpler"?

One definition might focus on the level of restriction. Set a minimum weight, include some safety regulations and then let the teams have at it. VERY simple regulations. But, in my opinion, it would be a disaster for the sport for a multitude of reasons.

Another definition would be to focus on more restriction that creates simpler solutions. You could write some very simple, but yet VERY restrictive regulations. That would potentially work, but also has many negatives.

Another potential would be to start from scratch and try to replicate the current regulations, but do it in a more "clean" way. I think that for the most part the existing technical regulations are a patchwork of tweaks to include restrictions as undesirable paths of development are closed off. I suspect that it is possible to rewrite and for the word count to be reduced and clarity improved, but it may not really change the resulting output (car design) much. Of course this would inadvertently creating new and unintended loopholes which will be quickly closed up in future revisions which starts. Which starts the patchwork regulations all over again.

Those are three options. I am sure there are others I have missed or variations of the above. But lets call them option A, B and C. I have no doubt there will be fans of each and that each respective fan will feel the other options are pure junk. At their core, each defines "What is F1?" It is an open spec series, is it a high restricted series, is it somewhere in-between? See my comments above about lack of agreement on what we like (and at it's heart) what fans think the answer to the question "What is F1?"

Originally Posted by chunterer

Part of the reason there aren't any new teams at present is because of the performance and I suspect political clout Merc has.

I agree that is a large part of it. That identifies one large effect. What is cause? What is the solution? Probably not "technical regulation" changes alone. I think this is structural and a core issue of how the series is setup.

Originally Posted by chunterer

FIA should publish the regs that are required to reduce cost and better racing and if certain entities don't like it too bad.

I used to be a fan of the focus on "reduce costs", but have switched to the belief (that I think is clearly backed up by real world evidence) that there is no reduction in cost. There is only reallocation of cost (budget). The pile of money used for funding is uncontrolled. Growing for some and shrinking for others. The regulations can stop (or try to limit) development in specific area, but that just means the money is spent elsewhere. The quantity of money spent is dependent only upon the ability to source it.

I think that you either create so tight of regulations that development produces little or no improvements and then pure chance has a larger impact on results (effectively fully spec cars... and to a level that is way beyond something like NASCAR) or you address the issue on the funding/budget side. Which is the dirty phrase of "budget caps" which everyone loves to say will not work in F1, but somehow seems to work in other sports.

Richard

[Aysedasi]

60+ pages eh......

My money's on the answer being in post #1000.....

(or #10,000, one or the other......)

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Well instead of DRS, let’s reduce downforce for starters

Not saying I disagree, but how do you make the fans that want F1 cars to set fast lap times happy? Less downforce will have to reduce cornering speed and impact lap times negatively. What happens when F2 cars are turning faster laps? Wasn't there a big outcry recently when everyone felt GP2 cars were encroaching upon F1 lap times. Maybe but some being faster than the slower F1 teams (can't remember the details, so I may have that bit wrong)?

Richard

[S griffin]

Surely having cars that are more challenging on the limit than actual cornering speed is more important to the fans

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Surely having cars that are more challenging on the limit than actual cornering speed is more important to the fans

Is it? Re-read this thread. Some don't feel this way. Isn't F1 a competition? Best solution wins? Why should we care about the quality of racing from an entertainment perspective? Why do we want hard to drive cars? Why make them slower? I may not agree with the comments above, but it is easy to play devil's advocate with this. What is F1? Competition of the best or good entertainment? Can it be both in today's world?

I do happen to broadly agree with you. The better cars get the more predictable they are. The amount of "chance" (poor reliability, etc.) is reduced over time, so the results on the last lap are much more unexpected. Team A is objectively better than team B, so we should expect to see Team A on top at the end of the season. Why should I watch something that is mostly pre-ordained. "Hard to drive" adds in more unpredictability.

This is very much aggravated within sprint racing (which F1 is). Endurance racing increases the level of unexpected variability to crop up, so that is why the results at the end of the day in endurance racing is less predictable. Even then, endurance racing is not immune as I am sure the cars are more reliable now than in the old days.

Richard

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

60+ pages eh......

My money's on the answer being in post #1000.....

(or #10,000, one or the other......)

Here is post #999 (if I do this right) Someone can rush to get the "right answer" in after me! Maybe it will be jimclark telling us all is fine and for us to move along.

Richard

[ASCII Man]

This forum is as dead as F1.

If you love something, you've got to let it go.
And if it comes back, it's yours forever.


Not the "right answer", but I don't care anymore.