[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[deggis]

Originally Posted by TF110

There is no 'bop'. The statement put out tells us that it's going to be the same as before even with the new allowed cars. There's a set weight, set power, set aero level and success ballast. How is that a bop mess? It's up to manufacturers to build their hypercar or prototype or whatever it is they're running to those levels. If they can't do that then they're not very smart for running the car they have. If thats the case they have a joker upgrade to use. I think people are making this more complicated than it needs to be.

Maybe you're making this more simple than it is going to be.

If we have
1) The original already published LMP-"hypercar" rules
2) The now announced actual-hypercar modifications to these rules

EVEN IF both have the same or similar performance parameters intended to produce similar laptimes, they probably won't since there's going to be drastic inherit differences in the cars at least chassis-wise. If #2 is even a bit slower than #1 or the other way, do you honestly think there's not going to be the usual BoP shenanigans, sandbagging and whining? Yeah sure.

And they're going to have scrap some of those set parameters for #2 because it is not possible to change the cars that much.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

And that is exactly what should apply provided there was some minimum no applied to production numbers.
It would take us back to the tradition of Le Mans being the ultimate proving ground for road going cars rather than being a sort of long distance F1.

Nice pipe dream. Doesn't work so well in real life when you add the costs to the equation, though.

[pablocomics]

Did anyone on ACO knows how many time you need for developing a new car from zero? Because just one year and a few months remains untill the deadline for those hypercars and they still have no regulations, just wondering

[S griffin]

I’m sure the ACO knows what it’s doing. Maybe they’ve completely abandoned the idea

[TF110]

Originally Posted by deggis

Maybe you're making this more simple than it is going to be.

If we have
1) The original already published LMP-"hypercar" rules
2) The now announced actual-hypercar modifications to these rules

EVEN IF both have the same or similar performance parameters intended to produce similar laptimes, they probably won't since there's going to be drastic inherit differences in the cars at least chassis-wise. If #2 is even a bit slower than #1 or the other way, do you honestly think there's not going to be the usual BoP shenanigans, sandbagging and whining? Yeah sure.

And they're going to have scrap some of those set parameters for #2 because it is not possible to change the cars that much.

I'm not sure what to add to what I already said except the statement put out states this

expansion of the 2020 LMP technical regulations concept to allow a 'hypercar' developed from the road cars sold by the manufacturers to enter, while preserving the previously-approved regulatory format

I'm not sure what is the hang up here. It says a 'hypercar' (or GTP/LMP whatever they call it) DEVELOPED from road cars sold... in the first regs, it said you could make a road version of a 'hypercar' and race it with some advantages like more engine freedom. It seems like this is just a reworded press release that expanded to existing road cars being allowed. I think most people expected that to begin with. It was a no-brainer to allow them to use something like the Aston Martin Valkyrie pro. I'm betting that as long as its a carbon chassis car that meets their dimensions and has a hybrid or can be modified to use one it will be allowed with some modifications. Aero levels, weight, power etc. can easily be adjusted with the tools the ACO/FIA have.

[GingerPixel]

My suspicion is that the hypercar regs published a while back had the inclusion of modified production cars like the Aston in mind, but perhaps couldn't specifically refer it down to uncertainty about manufacturer interest. If it became a class similar to GT1 and the production varients dominated, and had decent manufacturer support, would anyone be that dissapointed?

I for one find the prospect of a Valkyrie pinging around Le Mans and Spa quite exciting, but what do I know?

In an ideal world I think the ACO should be saying, "your car needs to be this big, this heavy and (possibly) cost this much... go for it", but we all know it's a little more complex than that.

[S griffin]

The Hypercars were supposed to be different and I mean completely different from the current regs, but there is uncertainty. I think it would good to see more Manufacturers enter the series this way, but it may not be enough for the series

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by GingerPixel

I for one find the prospect of a Valkyrie pinging around Le Mans and Spa quite exciting, but what do I know?

In theory yes. It meaning a BoP class doing LMP2 lap times as the top class while the current LMP2s have the life choked out of them takes most of the appeal out of reality though.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

In theory yes. It meaning a BoP class doing LMP2 lap times as the top class while the current LMP2s have the life choked out of them takes most of the appeal out of reality though.

I would posit none of what you said is reality so not sure why someone thinking Valkyrie and others is not realistic on the track?

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[TF110]

They said the new cars should do 3:25, 3:24 at Le Mans. I'm not sure if that's race pace but if it is that's a good 4 seconds faster than lmp2. I think the new cars will be faster than that though. They'll have lots of power and supposedly active aero so top speeds should be up.

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

In theory yes. It meaning a BoP class doing LMP2 lap times as the top class while the current LMP2s have the life choked out of them takes most of the appeal out of reality though.

The lack of public appeal of LMP2 is the source of the problem.

No name or recognition appeal. No public image and probably past the level of having a worthwhile contribution to autmotive research and development. And certainly nil mass marketing appeal.
The Hypercar projection has the potential to achieve a whole new level of public image.

[carbsmith]

The most recent pole time for LMP2 at Le Mans is a 24.8

[GingerPixel]

LMP2s are a funny old thing. They look and sound fantastic on track, but it doesn't translate very well on TV in my view. Giving them manufacturer faces like the DPIs helps with their appeal but that's another kettle of fish.

There will be a difference of opinion here but I don't really care about lap tims either. As long as they're not pootling round at 4 minutes, and the racing is good, who cares about how many tenths difference there is between a 2 year old LMP2 pole time?

[Anyopenroad]

It isn't obvious to me why any manufacturer would want to go to the effort and expense of creating bespoke prototype/hypercars *at all*.

Mainstream factories have F1 and FE. Sportscar makers get free advertising from customer GT programmes which pay for themselves.

Customer prototypes - LMP2 and LMP3 - are also thriving (albeit with a variety problem). It is also interesting how quickly customer LPM1 programmes came together.

A pragmatic future would seem to be based on customer racing classes, not factory teams. The factories can offer drivers and support for big races, just as they do now.

A hypothetical La Mans grid:

10 LMP1 privateers (at least 3 different chassis) doing ~3:25s
20 LMP2 privateers (at least 4 different chassis) doing ~3:30s
30 GT3s (perhaps as many as 8-10 manufacturers) doing ~3:50s

Works for me.

[S griffin]

I don't see the point of it either. A lot of manufacturers are now going to F1 or alternatively FE. Seems the LMP2 and LMP3 in ELMS seems to be the way to go, which is a shame for LMP1. I think that might go. The only good thing is the manufacturers in LMP1, but is that enough. I think you can get rid of the LMP1 and let the LMP2 and LMP3s in. Not sure about the GTs though. Don't know what lap times they would do though

[TF110]

GTE should be closely aligned with future GT3 imo. But it needs a stricter ruleset. It sounds like there's going to be some type of distinguishing between 'sports cars' and sedan based coupes in the rules. I'm not sure exactly but it has to do with the coupes being on a sedan platform in their road car variants.

[S griffin]

GT should be it’s own series. Difference between sportscars and GT cars to me

[Deleted]

https://twitter.com/marshallpruett/s...99552696627200
Interesting. Press conference with the ACO and WEC on future prototype regs. WEC says that if the Hypercar regs and second-gen DPi regs produce cars with similar lap times, they’d be open to having 2022 DPis compete in WEC/LM24 under BoP with 2020 Hypercars. @RACERmag

I genuinely don't know whether this is a joke or serious. But if it is serious it's a joke nevertheless. As if there wasn't enough incoming BoP nonsense threat already and going to the cheapest, laziest route possible

So we would have
1) The GTPs for the originally intended regulations
2) The GTPs from road derived hypercars
3) DPI G2 - with Class 1 integrated to it through BMW lobbying? http://www.dailysportscar.com/2019/0...-globally.html

all performance balanced together

edit: I guess it's not a joke. Wish it was

[TF110]

And now here's some more from DSC on these future regs/rules.

Even SLOWER lap times expected, up to 3:30 from 3:25 for 'race pace'. So that pushed lmp2 back even further and probably not much faster than GTE. Real smart...

[Deleted]

It's seems like a bunch of headless chicken running around

In the end it's not the fault of the lobbyists, but of the people that give up for lobbying demands

[TF110]

These cars better look and sound awesome for me to swallow the current state of what they're proposing. Even more bop is not the answer. Give them a set L/D ratio, dimensions, power output and weight and let them have at it. This is getting to the DPi level of bop redundancy that turns me off of that series.

[Akrapovic]

Why do the cars need to be slower? If the current LMP1P cars can do the speeds they are doing, why do we need to slow them down?

Unless they're wanting to slow them so they can use them on Grade 2 circuits more often?

[RedSquirrel]

Originally Posted by Chiana

https://twitter.com/marshallpruett/s...99552696627200
Interesting. Press conference with the ACO and WEC on future prototype regs. WEC says that if the Hypercar regs and second-gen DPi regs produce cars with similar lap times, they’d be open to having 2022 DPis compete in WEC/LM24 under BoP with 2020 Hypercars. @RACERmag

I genuinely don't know whether this is a joke or serious. But if it is serious it's a joke nevertheless. As if there wasn't enough incoming BoP nonsense threat already and going to the cheapest, laziest route possible

So we would have
1) The GTPs for the originally intended regulations
2) The GTPs from road derived hypercars
3) DPI G2 - with Class 1 integrated to it through BMW lobbying? http://www.dailysportscar.com/2019/0...-globally.html

all performance balanced together

edit: I guess it's not a joke. Wish it was

Don't forget that it would also include the current non-hybrid LMP1s (if any are still running in two years' time). Which are aerodynamically far superior to the proposed regs. And 200 kg lighter. And probably have more efficient engines. Yaaaaaaayyyy. BoP.

Also the slower lap is probably due to the fact that even an Aston Martin Valkyrie won't pass an LMP1 crash test.

[Deleted]

I fear that in couple of years time the only class at Le Mans I can follow with even vaguest of interest will be LMP2 - Class itself is comparatively sorry state of affairs

Zero Emission better make up for it

Originally Posted by RedSquirrel

Don't forget that it would also include the current non-hybrid LMP1s (if any are still running in two years' time). Which are aerodynamically far superior to the proposed regs. And 200 kg lighter. And probably have more efficient engines. Yaaaaaaayyyy. BoP.

Also the slower lap is probably due to the fact that even an Aston Martin Valkyrie won't pass an LMP1 crash test.

Yes but the old nonhybrids LMP1s will probably see their final hurrah in Le Mans 2021 already, after single year of phasing out and restricting to LMP3 power levels... ... ...

But indeed

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Why do the cars need to be slower? If the current LMP1P cars can do the speeds they are doing, why do we need to slow them down?

Unless they're wanting to slow them so they can use them on Grade 2 circuits more often?

I was thinking that maybe it had to do with safety at Le Mans? Perhaps they don't think road going hypercars could protect drivers at the speeds needed for a 3:20 lap?