The broad sunlit uplands of next March. Yeah, really. .

[midgetman]

Mostly thwart I think Mike, because those who could use it for personal gain have run away.



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[grantp]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Thwart it or try and use it for their own political gain?

This has suddenly happened- with little or no national publicity....

https://www.hampshirechronicle.co.uk...ked-to-brexit/

I think that looks like regular everyday incompetence Mike. Nothing special about it.

Now politicians encouraging school children to "strike" (Merkle et al) is, in my opinion, a clear sign of abandoning their responsibilities and send a massage to the youngsters that they should ignore advice from their elders.

If that is a strategy to persuade everyone that the world's future should be most heavily influenced by those without the benefit of experience then I think we should immediately pass control of strategic direction to those under the age of 10. By the time their preferences could be implemented they will be in their 20s and so, presumably, responsible enough to develop the ideas they supported.

Obviously to make this work the aged rump of voters (over the age of 20 today) need to be taken out to of the system or the youngsters will be outnumbered. That would skew the result to the detriment of the survival of the planet and the return of the Unicorn.

Clearly the politicians we have today would be unlikely to support the idea of schoolchildren actually having power and influence even if they support the the suggestion the the elders are ruining things for the youngsters.

Why?

Well I would think that most of them would not like to be shown up as being incompetent if compared to an average self-centred toddler.

[Lancsbreaker]

I'll confess to being deeply disenchanted with the antics of our MPs - the huge majority of whom were elected after standing on a manifesto to implement the Brexit decision, yet who have suddenly discovered "principles" which allow them to ignore the electorate's view. The fact that having rejected the deal on offer, they are now apparently set to reject no deal, whilst expecting the EU to roll over and give them a short / long / indefinite extension of the leave date, shows them up as a bunch of self-obsessed elitists, in my view.



As a worst case, I'd live with John Elwin's solution of the opportunity to show up the EU organisation as the corrupt and manically obsessed with Federalism organisation that it is. What I've never understood is why so many of our politicians are desperate to stay within an organisation who's avowed aim is to render them the equivalent of parish councillors?


In the in my view unwelcome but likely event that we end up trapped in the EU for the foreseeable future, I just can't see how our politics is going to recover from this as the general public's disrespect for politicians is at rock-bottom, and I greatly fear that the numbers of people who see the point in voting in future elections will be dramatically reduced.

[bauble]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9xzN3ArsV4

Sorry Mike, another UTube clip, but what a lot of sense.

[Gerard C]

John if one day or another people here are aware about the real costs of the whole Brussels thingy I bet we'll be running out of stock with yellow jackets. And red faces too.
What is said tonight is that the ThM deal has been refused then a no deal was refused later on. Is my understanding good assuming our nat TV is not lying?

[Mike Bell]

Think that’s right Gerard- it’s getting difficult to follow exactly what has just happened!

I understand in the meantime that the Gare du Nord is still suffering from a douane work to rule over future pay and conditions, and it’s also slowing movement down at Calais as well? With the disruption caused by strong wind also, long delays going in both directions! Two weeks to go before UK historic teams head for Ricard, so nervous times......

[John Elwin]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

John if one day or another people here are aware about the real costs of the whole Brussels thingy I bet we'll be running out of stock with yellow jackets. And red faces too.
What is said tonight is that the ThM deal has been refused then a no deal was refused later on. Is my understanding good assuming our nat TV is not lying?

It's high time someone did an expose on the endemic corruption & fraud in Brussels, not to mention the obscene remuneration & perks that our showered on its employees.

I saw an interesting clip on YouTube that I now cannot find, actually a Channel 4 News story of all things, concerning a whistle-blower who blew the cover on expenses claim fraud & the disgraceful way the EU both treated him & covered-up the affair.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by Lancsbreaker

What I've never understood is why so many of our politicians are desperate to stay within an organisation who's avowed aim is to render them the equivalent of parish councillors?

Parish councillors can have a degree of local power and some sort of local recognition that comes with a sort of minor celebrity role providing access to people and events as a representative of the community. They can also have some influence over local decisions - from inaugurating some idea they like to to preventing an idea that they don't like - without having the final and last responsibility for whatever decision is made.

Thus with the EU as the main 'definer' of rules and regulations they can claim credit for implementing those rules and regulations that prove to be acceptable and even popular but duck responsibility for those that are not popular.

To an extent the EU does the same thing by accepting "guidance" from global authorities that claim to be setting worldwide standards for all peoples and manufacturers to use.

Now in theory, for globalised efficiency in a world of common interests, such harmonisation may make sense in the context of what is being addressed in some cases. To assume that it is likely to be good and desirable in all cases is a bit of a stretch.

There are a number of organisations, typically part of the United Nations domain of influence, that set global (or at least wide area) objectives by one means or another.

Take, for example, UNECE.

http://www.unece.org/info/media/pres...sport/doc.html

The linked article is a press release about the recent gathering that will (in effect has already) determine future transport strategy.

It's worth a read. Work through the self promoting wafflease style at the start to understand something of what the organisation is about and how it fits into the scheme of thinks worldwide and then enjoy the last third or so of the document to understand where 'harmonised' transport policy comes from.

The link towards the bottom of the linked document is interesting. Here it is for quicker reference.

http://www.unece.org/?id=51264

If you want to know more about this person quoted in the page above try this link.

'Mr. Mathew Baldwin, Deputy Director-General of the European Commission's Directorate-General for Transport and Mobility and EU Coordinator for Road Safety'

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by John Elwin

It's high time someone did an expose on the endemic corruption & fraud in Brussels, not to mention the obscene remuneration & perks that our showered on its employees.

John no one can fight against what we call "les grands nombres". They are the result of accommodations, additions and stuff. At the end of the day the estimations -very reliable of course- will give you numbers between four thousands and thirty thousands. Lobbyists. Time to say stop?

[midgetman]

Re-running the referendum argument on here dodges the real issue at heart - whether you voted for or against leaving the EU, you have been hung out to dry by Parliamentary games.

How do we hold them to account for the absolute dog's breakfast they've made of the whole issue? It cannot be denied that companies are leaving the UK. It cannot be denied that we have no idea what our trading relationship will be like on 30th March. There *will* be chaos, even if only transient, at ports. I predict there will be food riots, not because we are particularly short of food but because there are people planning them for their own political purposes (I have a friend who is a genuine anarchist and he is salivating at the prospect).

All this is because Mrs May took so long to achieve The Deal that there is no time to re-negotiate or on the other hand set up WTO withdrawal so we can leave without a deal in an orderly fashion.

It is an utter disaster for this country. A series of low-calibre Brexit secretaries got us a bad deal and no time to prepare.

In a couple of years or less they will all crave our votes at an election, in fact I reckon Hammond fired the opening shots yesterday. Given there is unlikely to be anyone standing who is not tainted by this shambles, what do we do?

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[Peter Mallett]

In truth the Brexit Secretaries had no say. If you recall it was a Civil Servant (Olly Robbins) who was tasked with coming up with a deal. The fact that the deal had no resemblance to good business practice seems to have passed the politicians by.

[midgetman]

Surely the Brexit secretaries should have/want strategic control? The buck has to stop with them, they were paid to do the job. There too much "oh it wasn't my fault, blame the official" going on in Government.

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[justracing]

No great surprise there, since when have politicians been blessed with any business acumen! Sadly as we all know, the majority of the couldn't run a p.ss up in a brewery!
This Brexit debacle has now reached something akin to a Whitehall farce, the only difference being that Brian Rix and co. actually made a profit from their productions.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by justracing

No great surprise there, since when have politicians been blessed with any business acumen! Sadly as we all know, the majority of the couldn't run a p.ss up in a brewery!
This Brexit debacle has now reached something akin to a Whitehall farce, the only difference being that Brian Rix and co. actually made a profit from their productions.

Thanks for managing to lighten things with your final paragraph. I now have visions of the cabinet all dropping their trousers just as the vicar walks into 10 Downing Street!

[Colin McKay]

I think it's the electorate who have dropped their trousers!

[bauble]

Originally Posted by Colin McKay

I think it's the electorate who have dropped their trousers!

… and bent over!

[John Elwin]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

Thanks for managing to lighten things with your final paragraph. I now have visions of the cabinet all dropping their trousers just as the vicar walks into 10 Downing Street!

Surely you mean the vicar's daughter?

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Surely the Brexit secretaries should have/want strategic control? The buck has to stop with them, they were paid to do the job. There too much "oh it wasn't my fault, blame the official" going on in Government.

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I agree but they were sidelined. It was well reported that they weren't actually invited to meetings.

As I said previously the deal missed one important piece and that was the closure clause whereby either party could revert to default if the pair failed to reach an agreed outcome. This is fairly standard practice because it gives the parties the opportunity to negotiate in good faith knowing that a time limit is approaching.

The open backstop failed to do this and lead to the Irish problem.

[bauble]

While being a very small sample, if the rest of the country feels the same way as members here, the General Election should be interesting to say the least.

Luton voted to leave, but both MPs have consistently worked to remain, one can only hope that anger and frustration will overcome party loyalty when it comes to the crunch.

The way I feel today can only be compared to 'road rage', that unbridled desire to do damage to some one, not at all in line with my Christian faith.
The only difference s that Road Rage usually only last for a few seconds before common sense takes over, but I do not think it will happen in regard to Brexit Rage.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by midgetman

In a couple of years or less they will all crave our votes at an election, in fact I reckon Hammond fired the opening shots yesterday. Given there is unlikely to be anyone standing who is not tainted by this shambles, what do we do?

Two years of personally targetted satire should be the primer for such an event.

Let's face it Cameron thought he could make the referendum issue go away by winning a stay vote, screwed it up and did a runner.


Had he stayed he would have been unlikely to have done anything except maybe have a re-run, emulating the Irish response.

There was no one around in politics at the time who could run with the project and succeed and the Europeans knew that. Moreover the UK was a different game compared to the Irish result in terms of size and timing.

Johnson seemed to be the front runner but, thankfully, ducked it. He can't even run his own life so the idea of having him leading the country like a tenth rate Churchill would not be attractive. As a ninth rate parish councillor he might just about make it.

The EU was always going to play hardball on this. It was always clear that leaving the project was never intended to be an option for any country that had joined in. Certainly not for any country of note. Even smaller countries with problems that are in no way helped by membership of the community and have fudged numbers to gain access are not allowed to leave the group - let alone be expelled for violation of the rules.

Europe has been here before, probably starting with the Romans. The only difference is the method of unification attempted - armed force having been considered only as a local option during the past 70 years. Crossing country borders has, generally, been frowned upon.

Probably the only reason for that was the promoted fear of vodka fuelled Russian military aggression and the involvement of the USA with a lot of boots on the ground. Once that perceived threat seems to have evaporated things were allowed to change and "unity" needed other chimeras that allowed for messages that reinforced it benefits.

The UK is no longer a possible military threat nor really a commercial power, at least in terms of industrial capacity and potential. Nor does it supply any significant on the ground defence role as it seemed to be doing in the 50s and 60s of the last century.

It can be sidelined relatively easily these days but was good to keep around as a source of income and cash flow and fishing rights. Having Oil and Gas rights in the North Sea was also handy but now they are almost gone (and the need for them is constantly questioned by "Greens", even that attraction is diminished. After all, the EU has a trading agreement with Norway (a small country by population that rejected the EU and suffers a very high standard of living as a result) which seems to be the beneficiary of new energy discoveries and opportunities in the North Sea area.

In other words the UK is disposable or would be if not for the influence it has in the financial world compared to the rest of Europe. For now.

Europe probably had (has) plans, through the medium of the Euro, to acquire that influence but it has taken too long.

They needed either the UK to join the Euro play, or another 10 years with a benevolent tail wind, to make it work. They are likely gambling that Brexit will help them with the financial power grab rather than hinder them. Being in a fairly precarious state as things stand it's quite a gamble.

The 2 year exit period is also quite clearly intended to be either too short (in the views of sensible people who might be involved with developing a properly functional deal knowing how difficult and complex such things might be) or too long for those who just want to get on with developing new relationships. 2 years is enough time to create plenty of mischief but not much else.

Given that most of this mess on the UK side seems to be under the control of Oxbridge graduates on has to wonder about the real quality of upper education for use in practical situations in the real world.

I suspect an East End Whelk stall owner could have done a better job at the negotiating table.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by grantp

Given that most of this mess on the UK side seems to be under the control of Oxbridge graduates on has to wonder about the real quality of upper education for use in practical situations in the real world.

I suspect an East End Whelk stall owner could have done a better job at the negotiating table.

But no doubt those Oxbridge graduates could quote you magnificent poetry verses appropriate to almost any situation.

From afar, it certainly appears that there is a large element of the wishy-washy within the UK parliament - and the whole Brexit mess has highlighted that even more.

Probably explains why strong leaders such as Churchill or Thatcher (regardless of what you may think of their politics) have stood out so much over time including having movies made about them - the majority of the parliamentarians have just been consistently ordinary, shallow and ineffective.

If nothing else, the frankly pathetic handling of Brexit by the UK parliament makes our lot here in Oz look at least partially competent and even Trump seems to appear a little more capable in comparison.

I'd hate to be running a business in the UK right now, how could you plan for anything?

[Robyn Slater]

Originally Posted by Tourer

But no doubt those Oxbridge graduates could quote you magnificent poetry verses appropriate to almost any situation.

From afar, it certainly appears that there is a large element of the wishy-washy within the UK parliament - and the whole Brexit mess has highlighted that even more.

Probably explains why strong leaders such as Churchill or Thatcher (regardless of what you may think of their politics) have stood out so much over time including having movies made about them - the majority of the parliamentarians have just been consistently ordinary, shallow and ineffective.

If nothing else, the frankly pathetic handling of Brexit by the UK parliament makes our lot here in Oz look at least partially competent and even Trump seems to appear a little more capable in comparison.

I'd hate to be running a business in the UK right now, how could you plan for anything?

Basically our government are the laughing stock of the world. Hope they realise

[Peter Mallett]

Unfortunately it's Parliament as a whole, not just the government.

[zefarelly]

It's not the whole of parliament, but certainly the two main parties and the Irish wierdo's. Laughing stock is an understatement.

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by Tourer

.



I'd hate to be running a business in the UK right now, how could you plan for anything?

Which is why so many are leaving. Not just because of Brexit but also because of the total inability of Parliament to handle it. Markets hate uncertainty and we've had that for nearly three years now.

Topic of debate in the pub last night - will the EU grant an extension or are they so fed up that it's a case of "**** off on March 29th and good riddance"? Will our money finally be outweighed by our nuisance value?

As usual it all seemed so simple over a glass or two.

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