How to fix F1?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Armco Bender

The races are too long,this is the age of 20/20 cricket.
I want action and I want it quick....after 5 laps of watching a GP on TV I'm channel surfing.

Speedway is your thing Armco!

[Armco Bender]

Actually the FIM Speedway series is great TV,I enjoy watching that.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I agree, bringing back manual gearboxes would make a big difference. It used to be the best way to pass at somewhere like Monaco

So what happens to the feeder categories or even the rest of motor sport, ban auto gearboxes? To repeat my question, what happens to the feeder categories if F1 was to become more hands on from the driver and less tech driven?

Actually I think it is too late for any major changes utilising an IC engine as we are most probably entering the last decade of the IC and that will most probably mean the manufacturers leaving the series unless F1 gets with the program of going electric. Every single manufacturer involved even Ferrari are pedalling fast to develop and sell electric vehicles so their motor sport involvement will have to reflect what is being sold at the retail level.

[wimiu012uk]

Rumer's are that the option of performance based options such as are used in moto gp along with cost cap are on the table for 2020.

By performance options I mean that if you do not score points based on podium positions you as a team are allowed to do certain things for example more testing or allowed more engines etc.

[Armco Bender]

Actually I think it is too late for any major changes utilising an IC engine as we are most probably entering the last decade of the IC and that will most probably mean the manufacturers leaving the series unless F1 gets with the program of going electric. Every single manufacturer involved even Ferrari are pedalling fast to develop and sell electric vehicles so their motor sport involvement will have to reflect what is being sold at the retail level.

Yes F1 must be kicking itself now it sees how Formula E is progressing and how many manufacturers are flocking to it.
F1's carbon footprint is so big it will come to the same end as the dinosaurs did.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Armco Bender

Yes F1 must be kicking itself now it sees how Formula E is progressing and how many manufacturers are flocking to it.
F1's carbon footprint is so big it will come to the same end as the dinosaurs did.

Has Formula E achieved a paying spectator yet?
Cars are slow and look heavy, personally I think F3 cars are much more impressive, so I cannot see Formula E threatening F1 anytime soon.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by wimiu012uk

Rumer's are that the option of performance based options such as are used in moto gp along with cost cap are on the table for 2020.

By performance options I mean that if you do not score points based on podium positions you as a team are allowed to do certain things for example more testing or allowed more engines etc.

My first thoughts are another gimmick such as success ballast is seen to be. Another way forward might be to open the regs and allow even more tech but frame things in such a way that active management of the car and data is severely limited. Get rid of all the engineering resources at the track, take away the fancy steering wheels but let them go mad on suspension, engine management etc. That way some guessing will have to return and some mistakes might be made which removes the predictable outcomes. The data from the car would be limited to a number of channels that could only be reviewed locally with limited resources and what they can't monitor they have to use their brains and think about what might fix the issue like the ordinary racing pleb does now.

The counter to all that is can manufacturers who spend serious money be expected to play the game with restrictive rules? I suppose that if they enter knowing the rules then it can be assumed that they are willing to play the game. What has happened over the preceding two decades is those big spending race teams have massaged changes and they do not want the status quo disturbed and I find that part particularly distasteful. BE had to compromise back when there looked to be a breakaway forming and we are now looking at the results of that. The teams have grown used to being largely in control and they are fighting tooth and nail to remain in control.

[Adam43]

Have F3 cars ever been impressive? I remember being underwhelmed for decades over these cars, has something changed more recently?

Not saying it hasn’t been an important battle ground, but the cars have never been the draw.

[S griffin]

The main criticism of F3 was too much grip not enough power, which didn't help the racing in that formula. Unless it was somewhere like Monza

[Compromised]

How to fix F1...

Maybe don't ruin a race before it's even finished? Might help, dunno???

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Compromised

How to fix F1...

Maybe don't ruin a race before it's even finished? Might help, dunno???

Agree.

First race I watched live in awhile. I will go back to recording them, and reviewing results after the fact to see if the race was worth watching. Today wouldn't have made the cut.

I don't expect many will agree with me, but it was a waste of my time.

Richard

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Have F3 cars ever been impressive? I remember being underwhelmed for decades over these cars, has something changed more recently?

Not saying it hasn’t been an important battle ground, but the cars have never been the draw.

Compared to Formula E, F3 with all its faults is magnificent, was the point.

[Adam43]

I know that’s what your post said. If you like, you could use that to give weight to your point that Formula E is really bad as it is even more boring than F3.

[chavez]

Originally Posted by Casper

So what happens to the feeder categories or even the rest of motor sport, ban auto gearboxes? To repeat my question, what happens to the feeder categories if F1 was to become more hands on from the driver and less tech driven?

Formula One should have the cars that are most difficult to diver with the fewest driver aids.

For example, Formula One allows tyre warmers, but Formula Vee does not. The novice driver gets less assistance than the professional grand prix driver.

[Paradise City]

A categorical ban on car-to-team radio. Not that half baked stuff a few years ago. Total ban. Pitboards only. Only race control can speak to driver if there's a safety issue.Sometimes its the simplest thing that does the job.

If they do the success ballast/punishing thing, I'll switch off. Reverse grids ditto.

[S griffin]

They should start by banning telemetry, so it’s drivers who have to recognise what is wrong with the car

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Casper

The elephant in the room regarding F1 taking a step backwards is every category would have to do the same to ensure that the steps remain as as they are. I have commented before on F1 becoming a wankfest for engineers and having encountered it myself in our own racing. There are some resources that could legitimately be denied them to make it a bit more difficult, banning all digital communications with the factory from the race track would be one but who suffers the most, the top teams or the stragglers if that was to be imposed? I don't think that would be seen as a gimmick as other things are but everyone has an opinion.

from a budget and resource perspective though, even if F1 scaled back by 50% they would still have many times more resources than any of the junior categories. im not sure anyone would have to scale back just because F1 did.

and for something like LeMans (correct me if i am wrong) maybe there would be 1 or 2 teams who would have more budget and resources then a scaled back F1 team...not ideal i grant you for the 'pinnacle of motorsports' but overall 10 teams spending 200mil each a season would still give it the the title of most expensive a category.

that said, i can appreciate there is an aspect to this im not considering.

anyways, i certainly agree about banning all real time telemetry between the pit/car and the factory during a race. collect the telemetry but cant use it during the race.

sporting events ultimately need to be determined by those is attendance imo.

the small teams may be the losers here but i think overall the benefit will still go to the team that has the best human race strategist and driver who can execute combo...that could still be a Brawn/Schmi top team combo or it could be a Perez/(and whoever his race engineer was) pulling off crazy one stoppers with a small team.

human talent would, i hope, win the day.

Originally Posted by Paradise City

A categorical ban on car-to-team radio. Not that half baked stuff a few years ago. Total ban. Pitboards only. Only race control can speak to driver if there's a safety issue.Sometimes its the simplest thing that does the job.

not so much convinced about also banning pit to car during a race...maybe if the cars were greatly simplified first it would work but i have no interest in seeing a car stall on the grid because the driver forgot which button to push.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

not so much convinced about also banning pit to car during a race...maybe if the cars were greatly simplified first it would work but i have no interest in seeing a car stall on the grid because the driver forgot which button to push.

It doesn't bother me.

'For want of a nail an empire was lost' has historically been a factor in F1. In anything really. If the driver doesn't know his car backwards then let him reap the consequences...

[Purist]

The trouble is, there are simply too many settings for the human mind in the heat of the moment to be able to process them all; the brain can only process so much at a given time. Simple as that. And the manufacturers won't willingly give up the potential advantage that detail customization gives them in terms of performance. Frankly, an engine without the electronics has nothing to do with any of the units they make anymore.

And thinking of Lando Norris, and others probably, it strikes me that the tolerances on current F1 cars are so tight that, by the time a mechanical issue reaches the level where human senses are capable of picking it up, it's already too late, and a car failure is inevitable. In other words, telemetry has become, by default, the only way to see it coming in such a way that a DNF can be averted.

And this stuff isn't going away now that it's been invented. You can't take that level of refinement out of the engineers' heads now that it's been learned.

And as for changing F1 and the resulting issues with lower categories, it's not so much the sheer amount of resources F1 teams are using; it's that if you slow F1 down by much, you have to slow down all those other categories to keep the existing pecking order of F1 being "the fastest", and therefore, "the pinnacle".

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Purist

And this stuff isn't going away now that it's been invented. You can't take that level of refinement out of the engineers' heads now that it's been learned.

With all die respect F1 has "unlearned" an awful lot of things and has more restrictions than anything else.

Continuously variable transmissions were banned outright, so no reason to go back to clutches and manual h pattern gearboxes, or anything else.

F1 tyres are not exactly cutting edge, neither is the suspension, or the brakes, or the materials they use for construction, or the KERS systems, or the engine management systems etc etc.

These are just cars constructed to a set of regulations, losing 200 kg off the car weight should simplify the cars a great deal and gain a lot of lap time.

No aspect of a current car should be sacrosanct from change or simplification.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Purist

And this stuff isn't going away now that it's been invented. You can't take that level of refinement out of the engineers' heads now that it's been learned.

And as for changing F1 and the resulting issues with lower categories, it's not so much the sheer amount of resources F1 teams are using; it's that if you slow F1 down by much, you have to slow down all those other categories to keep the existing pecking order of F1 being "the fastest", and therefore, "the pinnacle".

Yes, the last point is what I meant and I did not expand that at all as I should have. As for the problem of taking away the technical stuff there is no need to do that. If the data coming off the car cannot monitor everything they put on it they will soon reach a point where the risk is too great. If all they can monitor is temps, fuel flow & pressure, GPS & Gear/RPM then the rest had better be bloody good stuff and dead reliable because when they get a problem they will actually have to nut it out. I have left suspension out because I think the drivers need to do some thinking themselves and the engineer actually learn what fixes certain things. It does not ban fancy suspension and by all means allow it but they won't be able to look at the data and have an instant fix to a problem. This is all dreamland stuff because at this level if a team is spending millions they want a return on investment and not a lottery which is exactly why we have what we have. The teams are not in F1 to take chances with their investments they want certainty.

[Purist]

Wnut, I didn't refer to any specific part, but the overall level of refinement that the engineers now are going to take any component to that they possibly can. And that level of refinement is a direct consequence of all the restrictions in the rules; if you restrict what can be done/worked on, the rest will get the focus, to an even greater nth degree.

Those brakes take 6 months to make, one carbon atom fired onto the backing plate at a time. And they produce more stopping force than anything else in the automotive world.

The technology types of some things might not be the most radical out there, but being able to shrink it down, cool it, and package it such as they do now certainly is cutting edge. If it wasn't, failure wouldn't be the issue that it clearly is.

You're a bit optimistic on the weight there, as the current standard listing is 743 kg, and don't expect F1 cars to ever drop below 600 kg again; the F1 cars that people remember weighed less than that were from some time ago, before the current levels of built-in crash protection.

Even with the weight reduction, does that cancel out the impact of the instant torque provided by the electric motors? The main places where F1 cars are still faster than the other categories, even with their current weight, is in acceleration and braking. It's not particularly in either minimum corner speed (at least in the slow stuff) or top-end speed on the straights. Mid-corner speed in the quicker stuff isn't hugely different from other high-downforce categories like LMP1.

The cars aren't going to lose the electronics; the manufacturers will leave first, as they don't make engines without them anymore. (Anyway, at some point here, Europe may well mandate that it all be electronics, regardless.)

And yes, Casper, it is dreamland that the manufacturers would go along.

Not to mention, if anything happens to the suspension, for one, it's likely an automatic DNF anyway, even with the telemetry they have now.

As for the other stuff, to an extent, perhaps. Remember that teams, even with the issues they were having (including Red Bull), wouldn't drop throttle- or brake-by-wire systems; that's a pretty big safety hazard if anything goes wrong. So they probably won't cut back too much on the complexity, because if one team does it, and actually gets it to work reliably, the others will be so far off the pace it won't even be funny.

[Casper]

My suggestion is let them pour all the technology into the cars that they want but severely curtail and restrict their access to data from the car while it is at the track so they can't micro manage it. There is absolutely no reason for them to stop the improvements but make it more of a guessing game by denying them information and introduce chance. I would take a lot of rules away and simplify the rule book so they would attempt to load more technology into the cars and then remove all the buttons on the dash and all communication from the pits. The only button on the wheel should be the horn. Taking this approach will introduce a bit of chance and risk taking. If they make it too complicated the whole thing will fall over during a race or even in practise and qualifying.

The cars are too reliable and we need more of a lottery but fat chance of that though with the millions at stake.

[Purist]

The cars are notably less reliable since they've had the hybrid and KERS systems. On the flip side, even classic and vintage machinery is a lot more reliable than it was in the day, since they're running on track surfaces that don't beat those cars to a pulp now, and modern oil/fuel filters alone are also making a huge difference.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Purist

The cars aren't going to lose the electronics; the manufacturers will leave first, as they don't make engines without them anymore. (Anyway, at some point here, Europe may well mandate that it all be electronics, regardless.)

And yes, Casper, it is dreamland that the manufacturers would go along.

the assumption here being that the manus are more interested in the technology then they are the marketing and advertising benefits of F1?

no doubt that the 'technology' is also what they are advertising but there is a line here somewhere because the technology that F1 is pursuing isnt relatively interesting nor is it actually improving the quality of the racing/sporting event.

a more thermally efficient engine is of course cool but its not going to literally change the world in 10 years the same way smart phones have over the past 10 years.

the closest F1 has recently got to the space race was with a non manu team (RB) dropping some dude out of space capsule.

the best aerodynamisists arent working in F1 and surely F1 isnt a training ground so that these aero specialists can go back to their manu and help them design plastic cladded generic bubble SUVs to be built on a global assembly line... presumably the bast are working in fields like building trains that travel faster than 400km/h. the movement of mass numbers of people is the future and certainly not inefficiently moving one person around.

for sure im being a bit glib here but the technology that some teams are spending half a billion a year on are no longer interesting, not particularity good for racing, and not relevant to the human race imo.

anyways, imo, unless the next race track is going to be built in space i think its a huge mistake to pin F1's future hopes on more of these technologies (and the rising costs that come with it) that the manus are currently pursing.

the above is more of a philosophical point (well rant really)so please take it with a grain of salt.