[WEC] Toyota LMP1 Discussion

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Toyota harrassing SMP
https://news.yahoo.com/amphtml/toyot...090652379.html

"SMP lost six laps on us at Le Mans, but plenty of that was down to them because their pitstops weren't quick enough. You can complain, but those laps lost as a team you will never get back through EoT or whatever in the regulations."

Because their pit stops weren't quick enough... Lol... Yes that made the six lap gap... I would like to hear his excuse for demanding one lap mandated advantage back for LM 2019 after it has been absent since Silverstone of the previous year... You know if everything was supposedly in grasps for the privateers

Didn't the rule makers say the hybrids should have a stint advantage in the first place? Now they're not supposed to have a stint advantage even though they're hybrid...

What SMP could have done was try to be more fuel efficient to save time by short filling while refueling, but I guess that's out of their control and more to do with the engine. At least this season we don't have that "1-lap advantage" but lets not pretend the regs stated that going hybrid would give you that extra lap or two during the stints. I guess it could be worse and Toyota could do their 14-lap stints again. That'd probably mean the non-hybrids tanks would be 50% larger and negate their lower weight

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by TF110

What SMP could have done was try to be more fuel efficient to save time by short filling while refueling, but I guess that's out of their control and more to do with the engine. At least this season we don't have that "1-lap advantage" but lets not pretend the regs stated that going hybrid would give you that extra lap or two during the stints. I guess it could be worse and Toyota could do their 14-lap stints again. That'd probably mean the non-hybrids tanks would be 50% larger and negate their lower weight

You'd lose seconds per lap for 10+ laps to gain maybe 2-3 of those back in refueling, lol.

The fact that the Toyota can launch instantly, no starter motor, and can run with the wheels engaged on the jacks, means it's completely impossible for a privateer to even get close to the fuel times. We actually witnessed this, with Toyota spinning the wheels in the air and no penalty, because it only applies to ICE. So quite why we're saying "the privateers can do more in pit stops" when the rules build in another advantage for the hybrids, I'm not quite sure. Even if they completely nail it, the fuel takes longer to fill, and the cars cannot launch sooner due to the regulations. Must be nice to be in charge of Toyota and not have to worry about the pesky rule book that others have to run by lol.

The rules did say the hybrids would get the extra lap. The maximum stint length was mandated at one additional lap. The cars cannot burn more fuel and run faster and take a shorter stint because that'd break the fuel flow regulations. So you have fuel flow regulations giving you the minimum stint (assuming a full tank of fuel), and you have stint length governing the maximum regulations. Toyota would have to put in the effort to lose the lap advantage they had and get dangerously close to fuel flow regulations whilst they were at it.

It isn't Toyotas fault the rules are the way they are, and Toyota played by the rules, but christ trying to somehow play the little guys as bad losers and pretending the regulations match is a poor show. Yay for sportsmanship.

[carbsmith]

Funny how everyone was vilifying Dragonspeed without evidence over the tire veto thing, but you're all ignoring it was SMP.

The #11 finished about 20-23 minutes worth behind and spent 15 minutes longer in the pits than the winning #8 Toyota. 10 lap stint to 11 lap, I guess that works out to probably 3 stops once you include safety cars, which is I don't know, 5 1/2 minutes just looking at SMP's pit stop times and guessing the pit lane costs you ~30s? Or is this pit in to pit out in which case it costs you less than the pit time. They actually made 4 more stops though. I don't know if the refueling was entirely equivalent between NA and turbo, but Rebellion's pit stops were closer to 1m10s while SMP's were more like 1m15s. Over a race duration that's up to 3 minutes difference. In terms of extended pit stops, the #8 only lost 1m55s and the #11 had two that cost them 4m50s.

So let's say for the sake of argument that SMP was less efficient on their stops than Rebellion, had one extra unnecessary stop, and lost an additional 3m working on the car, that's something like 8 minutes out of 20 to get to the lead lap, anyways. The same pit window and refueling time would get them another 8 minutes and then you can blame 4 on race pace probably. So even if EoT was perfect they probably would have been 2-3 laps down instead of 6. (I should note the Toyotas were over 4 minutes apart on pit time but finished within a lap)

In general SMP showing up, acting surprised by the rules that were in place, then quitting when they're changed to what they wanted them to be while screwing over everyone with the tire thing is, in a word "odd".

[Deleted]

But just like all of us, SMP didn't know for sure Toyota was going to demand back the mandated one lap advantage for LM. So yes they can be "surprised by it". Remember that the removal of said advantage for Fuji 2018 was done only through agreement of Toyota. If they really wanted to have "good show" like they constantly claim, they wouldn't have insisted on using it again for the only race that actually matters to anyone.

[TF110]

You can blame Toyota for it, but the precedent was already set in the rules. I don't like it but the non-hybrid teams agreed to it as well. Look forward to this season to see how it plays out. Faster refueling is gone, one more lap is gone, so will it be even now or will Toyota still walk the race?

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by TF110

You can blame Toyota for it, but the precedent was already set in the rules. I don't like it but the non-hybrid teams agreed to it as well. Look forward to this season to see how it plays out. Faster refueling is gone, one more lap is gone, so will it be even now or will Toyota still walk the race?

I don't think non-hybrids "agreed to it" but they just were forced to. I suspect the situation was more of a Ferrari VETO situation in F1

Anyway, as for this final season, as I said on the other thread I suspect Toyota may "give up" couple of the lesser races (probably at least Shanghai and Interlagos) in order to maximize the success ballast scenarios as well as to show off pretense of competition, and then dominate the rest, and obviously Le Mans

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Chiana

I don't think non-hybrids "agreed to it" but they just were forced to. I suspect the situation was more of a Ferrari VETO situation in F1

Anyway, as for this final season, as I said on the other thread I suspect Toyota may "give up" couple of the lesser races (probably at least Shanghai and Interlagos) in order to maximize the success ballast scenarios as well as to show off pretense of competition, and then dominate the rest, and obviously Le Mans

So then they p--- off Toyota, and they most likely leave... Some here seem to think that's a good idea. So we have a top class consisting of SMP, Rebellion and an off and on ByKolles with a tbc two-car Ginetta team. Sounds decent on paper, but then there's no 'wec'. The fia is in the aco's ear about getting another manufacturer in the class and that's why hypercar came about. So without them, you probably lose tracks and races in other countries. Fuji, Shanghai, Interlagos, maybe Sebring, Bahrain (wouldn't really be missed); no world championship means it turns back into a weaker version of the ilmc or an elms+ type series with a few lmp1s. There's big pros and cons to that imo, but it seems like they want that fia world championship status and that meant keeping on Toyota.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by TF110

So then they p--- off Toyota, and they most likely leave...

Pandering to manufacturers is why we're in this mess in the first place. How will we solve it? We'll pander to manufacturers! Who'll then slag off the few people who do put in the effort to come and fight them despite an impossible to overcome disadvantage.

It doesn't take a genius to see the failings in everything here. What a good ecosystem the ACO and Toyota are building here.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by TF110

So then they p--- off Toyota, and they most likely leave... Some here seem to think that's a good idea. So we have a top class consisting of SMP, Rebellion and an off and on ByKolles with a tbc two-car Ginetta team. Sounds decent on paper, but then there's no 'wec'. The fia is in the aco's ear about getting another manufacturer in the class and that's why hypercar came about. So without them, you probably lose tracks and races in other countries. Fuji, Shanghai, Interlagos, maybe Sebring, Bahrain (wouldn't really be missed); no world championship means it turns back into a weaker version of the ilmc or an elms+ type series with a few lmp1s. There's big pros and cons to that imo, but it seems like they want that fia world championship status and that meant keeping on Toyota.

I would have taken ILMC or LMS system with 5-10 nonhybrids any day over what is to come next year. I'm not sure why we need a "world championship" in the first place. Ratel seems to be doing fine without them as well.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Chiana

I'm not sure why we need a "world championship" in the first place. Ratel seems to be doing fine without them as well.

I 100% agree with this. Too many people get worked up about a damn sticker. Call it the World Endurance Series then and we can all stop pretending FIA World Championship stickers contribute to anything in any way.

[Deleted]

IIRC even just the FIA moniker costs great deal of money for the events. And FIA and the ACO have had their differences shown in recent years, Beaumesnil has even wanted to downplay their role...

The manufacturer(s) would still have come for LM, even if the actual series had been regional / cup based in nature and contested mostly, if not entirely by privateers...

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Pandering to manufacturers is why we're in this mess in the first place. How will we solve it? We'll pander to manufacturers! Who'll then slag off the few people who do put in the effort to come and fight them despite an impossible to overcome disadvantage.

It doesn't take a genius to see the failings in everything here. What a good ecosystem the ACO and Toyota are building here.

I'm not following your line of thought... Toyota was there for the first season of the wec and committed because of the hybrid aspect. You're saying that they should take a hike to pander to tiny names like SMP's and ByKolles's who flake and quit? Teams that can't make a full season or even stay on for more than a year? All because big bad Toyota fires on all cylinders for once and had the nerve to answer a question, oh and run a hybrid car. SMP already left and the guy gave his opinion.

Their efforts were not big investments and what did they give to the series besides a two car entry for a season or in ByKolles case, not even a single car for the entire season? Toyota otoh has been a constant since 2012, going on their 9th straight season, joined the series early and saved it from being an Audi vs 2 or 3 other cars in the series' inaugural year. The wec would have been over before it started.

I don't know about you but I wouldn't be interested in joining a series that tells you to get lost because you are running a hybrid car and others are not so it's unfair to them. I wouldn't want to join a series that caters to teams doing lower effort work then expect to be immediately winning races vs your fastest sportscar in the world. These are the things that you have to weigh when you think about their decisions. They're far from perfect and the eot is not either but you have Toyota who put forth effort in their car, joined the series to show the hybrid benefits etc. You can see how they might like to keep the one manufacturer left of what was 4 in lmp1-h, and also allow them to use the hybrid as the rules originally intended. As bad as it is that they have an advantage, they are in a bind with keeping everyone happy or losing their biggest players.

[Akrapovic]

That’s not what I said at all, lol.

Toyota saved the WEC. Who needs the little guys. They’re nobodies.

[carbsmith]

I want to reiterate that I don't understand why everyone dogpiled on Dragonspeed for giving up and veto'ing the new tires, which never happened, but when it turns out SMP were the ones who gave up and the ones that veto'd the tires they're the good guys.

Without a world championship we would probably be talking about Audi's 18th win in 20 years right now. It's sports car racing, there will always be down years. Why crap on the good ones at the same time? I don't even think the hybrid advantage in 2019 rules was near as bad as the diesel bias. There was years Audi or Peugeot had like 200hp and a stint advantage over petrol cars with otherwise identical regulations. Just take a look at the last Le Mans under the old LMP1 rules again. Rebellion was 6.5s off the Audis and worse yet 27kph slower in the speed trap while only 5kph faster than a stock block LMP2. And that's a good year, in 2011 before WEC started they were 11s off in the race. These days that wouldn't even put you in the top 5 in LMP2. Even with the 1 lap stint disadvantage 2019 was by far the most reasonable chance a privateer had to win since 2005.

[Deleted]

The privateer petrol cars in 20067-201X never hany real chance yes, but no-one realistically expected them to. The rules did not have strict pretense of equality, like they now (supposedly) do. Besides the main thing was that- after 2008 anyway - they actually were able to win races in ALMS and LMS, while factories concentrated on the big races and later ILMC/WEC... So they did end up having good ROI for much of the season. No-one was forcing you to be 5th or whatever in every race because the regional series were there. But then they banned the doors for that.

Meanwhile every other category started edging closer towards "everyone should be a winner" ideology with proam classes and whatever cheap so they came up with the poor man's privateer trophy for P1 privateers but obviously that was the poorest of compensations.

[Toyota_Fan]

A minor diversion in the thread, to share this rather long video of the TS050 at Barcelona which appears to have been posted today: https://youtu.be/Y9r9DgIVojk

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Toyota_Fan

A minor diversion in the thread, to share this rather long video of the TS050 at Barcelona which appears to have been posted today: https://youtu.be/Y9r9DgIVojk

Thanks for that.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Toyota_Fan

A minor diversion in the thread, to share this rather long video of the TS050 at Barcelona which appears to have been posted today: https://youtu.be/Y9r9DgIVojk

Minor maybe - but welcome.......

[GT6]

With the current lack of anything much happening re WEC it was nice to see tis video, thank you for posting the link

[hondafan37]

Toyota LMP1 team boss Rob Leupen has expressed an interest in targeting Porsche’s lap record at the Nurburgring Nordschleife with an upgraded TS050 Hybrid.

https://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/...ecord/4509806/

[kvenom]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

Toyota LMP1 team boss Rob Leupen has expressed an interest in targeting Porsche’s lap record at the Nurburgring Nordschleife with an upgraded TS050 Hybrid.

https://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/...ecord/4509806/

Maybe he read my post.

[S griffin]

Hope it doesn’t distract too much from the WEC project

[Dyson Mazda]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Hope it doesn’t distract too much from the WEC project

They are facing some pretty stiff competition this year

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Dyson Mazda

They are facing some pretty stiff competition this year

Yup, each car has some tough competition. From the other and the rule book.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Hope it doesn’t distract too much from the WEC project

I'm not sure what it would have to do with the wec program because he made it out to be after the TS050 is retired that they might be interested. At least if they go for a record it won't be at the cost of an entry or instead of one (two). The hypercar will be racing and the 050 can be their record setter. They should try Pikes Peak too