[VASC19R25] SuperCheap Auto Bathurst 1000, Mount Panorama 10-13th October (WITH POLL)

[Compromised]

Originally Posted by Jamolad

Wait, what? Really?

So in your analogy, DJR Team Debriss were caught high-range DUI, the penalty on offer was far less severe than what they should have received for high-range, so they admitted all fault and pleaded guilty at the earliest opportunity.

So what you are saying is DJR Team Debriss pleaded guilty as they knew their unconscionable actions should have seen them receive a much much harsher penalty than what has been applied here. They could not plead guilty quick enough as they knew they were getting off lightly (they knew they deserved much harsher penalties)? Interesting take on things.

Exactly what I'm saying. The penalty was so weak, even if you weren't guilty you'd still take it just to avoid any further annoyance.

Which begs the question, why didn't CAMS go harder? Scared of the Captains vast armada of resources? Or worried about previous "incidents" getting more scrutiny?

[gtcapri]

Originally Posted by Jamolad

Yes, I did say you were lying, and I admit that in the post you just quoted. It was when you were lying your arse off that I said that you were lying.

You said some stuff that was wrong. I pointed out you were wrong. Probably should have ended there. You got angry and repeated your mis-truths and tried to present them again as facts. I and others reiterated that you were wrong (again), and that was when I said "Don't crack the sads when your blatant lies don't pass the slightest fact check..." (or something close to that). You now admit that what you twice stated to be facts were not true.

I'm now aware that you get triggered when called a liar, so from now on when you try to present as facts what is known to be bullshit I will now use 'safe' words like mistaken, wrong, inaccurate, incorrect, false, misinfored, misguided etc...but won't call you a liar when you are lying.

We good to get back on the topic of DJR Team Debris admitting their actions were unsporting and unfair? You and I both put our handbags down now?

I never got angry. Not once!! Even when you resorted to name calling to illustrate your point. I dont have a superiority complex. Lying?? Nup!! Wrong as in mistaken?? It's happened before and more than likely happen again. I admitted I got the details wrong but the jist was correct. 888 cheated the same way. Again more spin than a carousel on your version of events.
And yet you continue to argue.... You can put down the shovel, you hit rock bottom three posts ago.

[gtcapri]

Originally Posted by Compromised

Exactly what I'm saying. The penalty was so weak, even if you weren't guilty you'd still take it just to avoid any further annoyance.

Which begs the question, why didn't CAMS go harder? Scared of the Captains vast armada of resources? Or worried about previous "incidents" getting more scrutiny?

Maybe the one of the reasons for the name change. To disassociate themselves from continual scenarios like this.

[Jerico]

Poll. Does the DJRTP punishment fit the crime?

56% No
38% Yes
06% Unsure

[Forda]

Clearly shows the punishment is too severe.

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by Forda

Clearly shows the punishment is too severe.

What?A bunch of tribal fans on both sides doing a Speedcafe poll are the repository of all wisdom?
I have no dog in this fight but that is a ridiculous statement unless you are trying to be sarcastic.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by Forda

Clearly shows the punishment is too severe.

I am here to tell you that isn't what it says, but it is a poorly written question!

****ing makes me laugh though the Forda fans complaining about Roland's money....

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Jerico

Poll. Does the DJRTP punishment fit the crime?

56% No
38% Yes
06% Unsure

56% are holden morons apparently, both T8 cars were advantaged by the safety car and still couldn't win.

[Sandgroper]

the debate is now a joke, close the thread.

Another bathurst "sorta" got out of control.

The winner won

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Mixer

I am here to tell you that isn't what it says, but it is a poorly written question!

****ing makes me laugh though the Forda fans complaining about Roland's money....

Roland whinged and whinged and whinged to get more downforce and then lost the race because their fuel economy was shot!

[Compromised]

It's no coincidence Supercars was most successful when "red vs blue" was at it's peak.

Rile one side up. They come out swinging then the other side hits back. Media reports on controversy, more drama ensues. Rinse repeat every couple of races.

Ford. Holden. T8. Penske. These are not your "enemies", just players in a game. You feel angry, offended. You want to "hit back". That's what they want - constant bickering means you never stop to question/criticize those running and controlling the game. And doesn't it just generate some clicks!

[Trevor]

Spot on Compromised, I have said many times in the last week or so that Supercars are loving this controversy and even feeding it, it means more punters buying TV and going to events, so more money in the gate and most likely more sponsors coming on board

They are loving the controversy, the bottom feeders

[tobyobi]

Originally Posted by bluesport

56% are holden morons apparently, both T8 cars were advantaged by the safety car and still couldn't win.

The 56% voting no would include anyone finding the penalty too harsh.

The poll is too simple, and also as per the comment section, filled with extreme tribalists who couldn’t see their favourite being wrong even after copping the punishment.

[Jamolad]

Originally Posted by gtcapri

I never got angry. Not once!! Even when you resorted to name calling to illustrate your point. I dont have a superiority complex. Lying?? Nup!! Wrong as in mistaken?? It's happened before and more than likely happen again. I admitted I got the details wrong but the jist was correct. 888 cheated the same way. Again more spin than a carousel on your version of events.
And yet you continue to argue.... You can put down the shovel, you hit rock bottom three posts ago.

You keep trying to steer this into a discussion about the mistaken things you said. You keep ignoring the question I posed, which is has anyone in the series ever been done under FIA Obligation of Fairness.

You keep referring to JW at Bathurst 2015 being the same as this...you are mistaken.

JW 2015 cost those behind him less than 100m. Fabian cost those behind him 1km. If I'm not mistaken, that is 10 times worse.

JW 2015 cost those behind him less than 2 seconds. Fabian cost those behind him 47 seconds. If I'm not mistaken, that is more than 20 times worse.

But here is the fundamental difference that makes them not comparable...JW 2015 was under green flag conditions so cars were allowed to pass. Fabian was under full course yellow so no cars could pass. That is infinitely worse.

10 times worse in terms of distance lost; 20+ times worse in time lost; infinitely worse in terms of permission to pass.

If you respond to this, please don't ignore the above topics of conversation to continue this e-****ing..if you respond please include if you accept those differences between JW 2015 and Debriss 2019 (if not, say which is/are mistaken); and has anyone in this series ever accepted and pleaded guilty to unfair and unsporting conduct under FIA (if yes, please say who). I'm not saying you have to restrict your response to just those topics, but it will be telling if you respond without going near either of those.

[Forda]

Originally Posted by Sandgroper

the debate is now a joke, close the thread.

Another bathurst "sorta" got out of control.

The winner won

^ What he said.

Sore losers might be better off buying a bottle of scotch, and crying into that instead.

[Tourer]

Bathurst 2019 is run & done now, winner declared, end of story.

DJRTP have copped penalties for what they did, IMHO they got off lightly but I struggle with the idea of taking the win away and if that had happened, would have felt wrong.

To me, the biggest issue with what DJRTP did was that four lapped cars were denied the opportunity to get their laps back at that stage plus leading into that SC period, with different fuel loads etc, there was a handful of cars that might win or get on the podium, depending on the luck of the draw with further SC periods etc. With the gap put into the field, all those possibilities went out the window, meaning that we were effectively robbed of a pretty wild last 25-26 laps.

17 would still have been in contention and may have still won it but it just felt a bit flat I guess. Certainly no-one can say that another car would definitely have won were it not for the gap in the field.

One thing that I think is almost certain is that there'll be some new rule structure in place next year to prevent this type of situation again. Won't be easy to write as these things are often a question of degree on what is considered "fair enough". Back in the day, there WAS a rule in the book that I think would have covered this situation but it was removed when the current "team orders" rule was put in place after the 2006 season ender - it's clear that it may be needed again.

There will always be an asterisk against Rick Kelly's season title due to what happened at Phillip Island that year and I think that DJRTP have done Mr McLaughlin & Mr Premat a great disservice by potentially causing a similar asterisk to sit next to this year's Bathurst victory.

[GTRMagic]

Perhaps the answer is simpler than we think
A car that fails to be within 5 car lengths of the one in front after a warning from race control cops an immediate pit lane penalty and/or the car immediately behind is authorised to pass

[E.B]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Perhaps the answer is simpler than we think
A car that fails to be within 5 car lengths of the one in front after a warning from race control cops an immediate pit lane penalty and/or the car immediately behind is authorised to pass

Or if said gap happens the lead car is judged to have a mechanical condition (ie overheating) and they can all pass, as per the existing rules (I think). Bet Fab would have picked up his pace had that started to happen

Or more simply introduce maximum times for any sector, failing to keep under maximum sector times allows followere to pass.

[chavez]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Perhaps the answer is simpler than we think
A car that fails to be within 5 car lengths of the one in front after a warning from race control cops an immediate pit lane penalty and/or the car immediately behind is authorised to pass

And how is the 5 cars lengths to be measured?

And would a warning be given in every instance? It would sure keep Race Control busy.

I agree the answer is simple, but it requires the implementation of safety car procedures that focus first on safety. And racing flat out back to the pit lane is not safe.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Perhaps the answer is simpler than we think
A car that fails to be within 5 car lengths of the one in front after a warning from race control cops an immediate pit lane penalty and/or the car immediately behind is authorised to pass

And if a double-stacking car impedes the car in the neighbouring pit bay from rejoining the race then both cars in that team get a drive through penalty.

[Compromised]

Step 1 - Have officials that are smarter/more competent than the teams.

If you do not fufill this step, any other change is futile

[Jerico]

Originally Posted by Trevor

Spot on Compromised, I have said many times in the last week or so that Supercars are loving this controversy and even feeding it, it means more punters buying TV and going to events, so more money in the gate and most likely more sponsors coming on board

They are loving the controversy, the bottom feeders

Very true it is all a media game which keeps the gate punters coming, and the armchair experts tuning in. Sounds like you Trevor have spent time at the track. The Red vs Blue thing is alive and well with the fans, this forum in testament to that. whereas in pitlane as you may know, no one gives a stuff what badge is on the car. The teams with the same badging as you are not your friends. In a lot of cases old friendships from years past offer more comradery despite a different badge. On race day they are all your competitors. In NZ the red vs blue is strong also, but you NEVER hear it in pitlane only from the spectators. Maybe a little different over there with factory backed teams? but I'm picking not much.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by Compromised

Step 1 - Have officials that are smarter/more competent than the teams.



If you do not fufill this step, any other change is futile

So you might say from a homologation perspective we have caught up now, but we suffer from having non professional judiciary. But so do the footy codes.

[gtcapri]

Originally Posted by Jamolad

You keep trying to steer this into a discussion about the mistaken things you said. You keep ignoring the question I posed, which is has anyone in the series ever been done under FIA Obligation of Fairness.

You keep referring to JW at Bathurst 2015 being the same as this...you are mistaken.

JW 2015 cost those behind him less than 100m. Fabian cost those behind him 1km. If I'm not mistaken, that is 10 times worse.

JW 2015 cost those behind him less than 2 seconds. Fabian cost those behind him 47 seconds. If I'm not mistaken, that is more than 20 times worse.

But here is the fundamental difference that makes them not comparable...JW 2015 was under green flag conditions so cars were allowed to pass. Fabian was under full course yellow so no cars could pass. That is infinitely worse.

10 times worse in terms of distance lost; 20+ times worse in time lost; infinitely worse in terms of permission to pass.

If you respond to this, please don't ignore the above topics of conversation to continue this e-****ing..if you respond please include if you accept those differences between JW 2015 and Debriss 2019 (if not, say which is/are mistaken); and has anyone in this series ever accepted and pleaded guilty to unfair and unsporting conduct under FIA (if yes, please say who). I'm not saying you have to restrict your response to just those topics, but it will be telling if you respond without going near either of those.

Are you still going with this carousel???
Why would I accept they're different when I believe (whether you think its right or wrong) they're not!!! Who are you that I cant have an opinion differing to yours??
Whincup held the field back until after Lowndes had bolted. Advantage Lowndes. Coulthard held them back, advantage McLaughlin. And if IIRC you can overlap but not pass until your passed the control line on a restart and you must keep the a pre determined gap to the car/cars in front.

So to answer your burning question of being charged under obligation of fairness by the FIA? Why would I even care and what does it matter?? I'm not paying the fine. Does it change the fact that both your team and DJR cheated? Just because a pendant like you believe its a major game changer doesnt necessarily mean it is. In the grand scheme of things it matters not one iota to anyone with a passing interest in motorsport. The sponsors arent leaving, publicity has increased and I doubt most people wouldnt even know what the F.I.A does let along give a toss. In years to come I guarantee it wont mean a damn thing to anyone but rusted on hardcore supporters. But I'll take your word if that makes you happy.

So to summarise, to me, in my opinion of which I'm entitled right or wrong, they're the same level of bad sportsmanship. In both instances there was a clear level of advantage to a team mate except one (DJR/Penske) took it way too far and was penalised accordingly. To you and your team they're not. Both happened, both are unsporting and I dont care who was charged with what by whom or what organisation when or where or if they got off scott free. Again for umteenth time I compared this instance to a 2015 instance to illustrate it has happened before to which even a former driver admitted it happened. I got what lap your driver Jamie was on wrong (and the availability of details of NATSOFT) so what? Still guilty of the same offence. If you cant deal with it, thats entirely your problem. I've shared my beliefs and admitted my mistakes yet you continue on some sort of moral crusade that you just cant let go. I'd agree to disagree but even then I'm guessing you'll need me to write an essay why that should be acceptable under ruleXXXX23.4 sub section d. o.

What did I say earlier about fools and people not knowing the difference?

[Jamolad]

*sigh* I fear we are both embarrassing ourselves here, but I've got to ask...what does the below have to do with JW in 2015 or Debriss in 2019???

Originally Posted by gtcapri

...And if IIRC you can overlap but not pass until your passed the control line on a restart and you must keep the a pre determined gap to the car/cars in front.