[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Mike E

Momentum = mass x velocity?

I guess if they're too fast for the weight it can be a bad combination. But there's 2-ton Bugatti's for the road that do 300mph so...

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by TF110

I guess if they're too fast for the weight it can be a bad combination. But there's 2-ton Bugatti's for the road that do 300mph so...

yeah, but has the same cornering speed of a kia

[Mike E]

Reduced peak rpm looking like the favoured approach to slow LMP2, and spec tyres in all classes on the cards too.

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2019/0...2-in-2020.html

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Mike E

Reduced peak rpm looking like the favoured approach to slow LMP2, and spec tyres in all classes on the cards too.

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2019/0...2-in-2020.html

Was i understanding the article to say that spec tires may be developed for each class and not necessarily from a single manufacturer? in other words, michelin in hypercar, goodyear in p2, or something like that?

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by joeb

Was i understanding the article to say that spec tires may be developed for each class and not necessarily from a single manufacturer? in other words, michelin in hypercar, goodyear in p2, or something like that?

I think that's the idea. Goodyear must have done their homework on this and either been assured of open competition or a realistic shot at supplying one or more classes. Why risk a high profile return otherwise.

[Mike E]

I wonder if the proposed slowing of LMP2 will have any impact on the relative performance of the different chassis. For example, if the Ligier is a bit draggy and the Dallara has an aero imbalance, will a lower top speed help them close the gap to Oreca? Or if one of them is traction-limited compared to the others, will having less power to put down even things up a bit? Maybe that's just wishful thinking.

https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...be-left-alone/

[carbsmith]

Generally less power favours lower drag cars. Like historically LMP2s run much less downforce than LMP1 because of the power deficit keeping them from being able to carry that kind of drag level. RPM reduction won't do much to reduce torque at corner exits.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Mike E

I wonder if the proposed slowing of LMP2 will have any impact on the relative performance of the different chassis. For example, if the Ligier is a bit draggy and the Dallara has an aero imbalance, will a lower top speed help them close the gap to Oreca? Or if one of them is traction-limited compared to the others, will having less power to put down even things up a bit? Maybe that's just wishful thinking.

https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...be-left-alone/

That article has some good quotes in it:

“From my view, it sounds like Hypercar is wrong, because it’s not fast enough. If you’re having to slow everything else down and change all the rules to accommodate something.”

“It’s just backing everything into LMP3 that’s going faster.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by joeb

That article has some good quotes in it:

Been saying that since they announced that target lap times.

Make it LMP1 speed. Don't need to adjust anything. Make it LMP2 speed, have to slow every other class down - LMP2, LMP3, GTE and GTC or whatever that GT3 spec class is called in Le Mans Cup now. And the LMP2s in Asia. And whatever knock on that has for LMP2s and LMP3s elsewhere. Blah blah, etc.

Make em LMP1 speed.

[TF110]

I said that same thing. They sped up lmp2 to make it faster on the straights than GTE so they can pass easier there instead of taking risks in the corners. Hypercar is too heavy at the current proposal. I think even at 1000kg it's too heavy let alone 1100. That's approaching GTE class weights. They're going to make lmp3 faster, to separate it from GTE, which will then approach lmp2 you can't make this stuff up. It's seemingly all to appease an automaker. I figure it has to be Aston Martin. Someone didn't want to make a prototype so they decided to use their road car as a base but that road car can't go on a diet. Or they just don't want to spend money on that. If this isn't the reason for the 1100kg weight, with room to add MORE ballast, I can't imagine what other explanation makes sense.

[CTD]

Could be interesting to look into a weight/power regulation, meaning if Aston Martin want to run a 1100kg car, then they are allowed X amount of Bhp.
If Toyota wants to run a 700kg car, then they are restricted to Y amount of Bhp.

[GasperG]

You can't displace that weight with power, this is not a drag race, weight just kills too much of your cornering speed.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by TF110

I said that same thing. They sped up lmp2 to make it faster on the straights than GTE so they can pass easier there instead of taking risks in the corners. Hypercar is too heavy at the current proposal. I think even at 1000kg it's too heavy let alone 1100. That's approaching GTE class weights. They're going to make lmp3 faster, to separate it from GTE, which will then approach lmp2 you can't make this stuff up. It's seemingly all to appease an automaker. I figure it has to be Aston Martin. Someone didn't want to make a prototype so they decided to use their road car as a base but that road car can't go on a diet. Or they just don't want to spend money on that. If this isn't the reason for the 1100kg weight, with room to add MORE ballast, I can't imagine what other explanation makes sense.

Although obviously the real answer is Aston Martin's eternal cheapness as you say, there is always the official excuse of "lowering the bridge" for next set of regulations, with Zero Emission probably being in the zone of LMP3 speeds. And that's because of the limitations of technology, not design. The ADESS hydrogen car is many seconds off from GT3 pace and that's the ultimate aim they're targeting too

[deggis]

Hypercar+DPI convergence is making a surprise return according to this (somewhat speculative) Autohedbo article.

https://www.autohebdo.fr/wec/actuali...ar-206605.html

Google translation:

By announcing the outlines of the regulation governing the endurance category Queen from the 2020-2021 season - which was endorsed by the FIA ​​World Council last Friday October 4th - we could have thought that any collaboration between ACO and IMSA had been made impossible. This is despite the fact that many builders have pushed for a common platform on both sides of the Atlantic.

But since then, only Toyota and Aston Martin have confirmed their presence in WEC. And again, many worries hover over the British program. While we were promised very quickly the names of the partners involved, nothing has filtered since the conference on June 14. According to our information, the firm of Gaydon, Red Bull and Multimatic, would be well of the part, but it is on the Canadian structure that would rest largely of the project.

If we want to be reassuring on the ACO side, there would have been a delay on the series Valkyrie - which should not be ready for the end of the year as announced - and that the future of the companies from across the Channel is hanging from the Brexit and its consequences after October 31st. More worrying, since June 14, no other "big" manufacturer has declared. McLaren, who was the most talkative about his intentions, would have thrown in the towel, just like for GT2. However, experience has shown, two builders, it is not enough. The house of cards would be far too fragile. But that could change ...

According to our information, the discussions between IMSA and ACO about a global platform are far from over, or have never been so timely, each being ready to take a step towards the other to strengthen oneself. That's why Ford has not announced anything about a DPi program as planned. Delighted by the success of the sports program developed around his GT, seen for the last four years in WEC and IMSA, the giant of Detroit has not given up hope that it is the same for the category queen. If no IMSA, no WEC ... and vice versa. And it seems that the governing bodies are ready to discuss.

The idea would be to bring Hypercar closer to an extrapolation of the DPi 2.0, planned for 2022, which will see the DPi receive a common hybrid system and force the automakers to offer further identification of the cars. It is true that without the logo and name Cadillac affixed to the shark fin of the DPi-V. R, nobody would be able to distinguish it. The freedom offered in the field of the aero would be greater than today, to offset the loss associated with the personification of cars.

On paper, it may sound crazy, even lost in advance, while the "Hypercar" has recently been ratified by the FIA. But Ford is far from the only one to ask for such changes, since it would be accompanied by McLaren, Porsche and Ferrari, the Italian firm even seem ready, if necessary, to resume discussions after having openly declared not to be interested by Hypercar regulation.

It remains to know the details of such a project and what Toyota, Aston Martin ... and the FIA ​​think, even if the idea is not to exclude anyone. But from the moment a BoP supposed to balance series modified Hypercars to go on circuit (like the Aston Martin) and pure Prototypes (like the Toyota) is set up, why not expand it to an extrapolation of future "DPi"?

Before we get there, a lot of parties have to agree. It may be in the coming weeks that the future of World Endurance will be played out.

[hondafan37]

Hypercar/ DPi 2.0/ Class One – And All That.
http://www.dailysportscar.com/2019/1...mhMuINcBYC_ciQ

[TF110]

I don't think class 1 will have a chance because only one manufacturer (BMW) wants it. I am hopeful that DPi 2.0 will be very close to or the same as hypercar. I also hope that hypercar is faster than predicted so lmp2 isn't gimping along barely enough to pass GTE.

[deggis]

Oreca/Rebellion+Peugeot?

https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...ercar-program/

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by TF110

I don't think class 1 will have a chance because only one manufacturer (BMW) wants it. I am hopeful that DPi 2.0 will be very close to or the same as hypercar. I also hope that hypercar is faster than predicted so lmp2 isn't gimping along barely enough to pass GTE.

Some sort of DPi/hypercar cross over is surely more likely now that both are BoP series.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by deggis

Oreca/Rebellion+Peugeot?

https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...ercar-program/

old times when rebellion lolas had lotus logo on their fin

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by TF110

I don't think class 1 will have a chance because only one manufacturer (BMW) wants it. I am hopeful that DPi 2.0 will be very close to or the same as hypercar. I also hope that hypercar is faster than predicted so lmp2 isn't gimping along barely enough to pass GTE.

But only one OEM (AMR) really seemed to want this Hypercar thing as well yet they still went with it

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Mike E

Some sort of DPi/hypercar cross over is surely more likely now that both are BoP series.

The funny thing is - if they went with Class 1 engines (or from 2022: power units) they could actually get rid of BoP.

[Deleted]

Class 1 cars and engines with success ballast would be infinitely preferable to both Hypercar and DPi. The cars may have specness and bulky visual styles the pre-DTM GT500 regulations did not, but at least SGT still seems to have at least some sort of honest technical aspect to it and not only just bop. Of course, having actual tire war with various companies helps too. As does their performance levels

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Class 1 cars and engines with success ballast would be infinitely preferable to both Hypercar and DPi. The cars may have specness and bulky visual styles the pre-DTM GT500 regulations did not, but at least SGT still seems to have at least some sort of honest technical aspect to it and not only just bop. Of course, having actual tire war with various companies helps too. As does their performance levels

I think the more interesting solution would be Class-1 engines in prototype-chassis (either P2 chassis like in DPi or ideally an open chassis competition like in P1), that way no one can blame their inadequate performance on the limitations of either their production-based engine or their road-based aero.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

I think the more interesting solution would be Class-1 engines in prototype-chassis (either P2 chassis like in DPi or ideally an open chassis competition like in P1), that way no one can blame their inadequate performance on the limitations of either their production-based engine or their road-based aero.

Well yes, in ideal world we could have many great things such as those in P1s

[TF110]

I prefer hypercar because there's 'nothing' spec about it. There's bop, but it seems like they'd use bop for whatever the new top class is anyway. Toyota will use a prototype still just to new dimensions while Aston will use a race version of the Valkyrie- which is nearly a prototype anyway. The thing that bothers me most is the weight of the cars which is probably the reason why they're so slow relative to today's lmp1's.

If, a big if, DPi is merged with hypercar, it might be that the future of the hypercar class will actually be more like prototypes instead of faster GT-type cars.