[WEC] Toyota LMP1 Discussion

[carbsmith]

They don't say anything about changing the car so this would be a car that passes tech but is running outside the event regulations for fuel and hybrid deployment like they've sometimes done in testing. Which is a fair bit less ridiculous than Porsche just disregarding half the safety regulations, ripping off a bunch of the equipment necessary to actually run the car in a race, and putting time attack tires, skirts, and active aero on the thing so it's not an LMP1 at all.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by TF110

Yeah I don't understand half of the article. I don't know what they exactly mean by record lap and then by unrestricted. But I don't doubt they will try and probably make a new lap record. They don't need to run 'unrestricted'. But if I'm guessing right, and going by the rest of what was said, that word might mean without bop hindrance which they mention in that article. And that's going to be the case at Le Mans anyway (plus they'll have a new LM package).

If they're talking about a car like Porsche did, they haven't even decided on that yet, so I doubt that's what they are talking about during LM week(s) next year. The ACO won't let them do that with that car unless it's an unsanctioned event. Maybe they want to try both? Outright lap record and real lap record?

They'll have new LM package for 2020? I thought development was completely done for TS050

Well whatever happens, at least we will have for one final time a great headliner class at Le Mans, free of artificial nonsense, and as fast pace as possible. It will be only six cars (or 7 if Kolles is accepted) and Toyota will win by 10 laps, but it will still be worth of tears. Good memories shall not die.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Chiana

They'll have new LM package for 2020? I thought development was completely done for TS050

Well whatever happens, at least we will have for one final time a great headliner class at Le Mans, free of artificial nonsense, and as fast pace as possible. It will be only six cars (or 7 if Kolles is accepted) and Toyota will win by 10 laps, but it will still be worth of tears. Good memories shall not die.

I'm pretty sure that the LM package is new because they said it was going to follow the hd package of this year with the high nose. Plus the mirror-less look they have going. Might as well go all out with it for the last hurrah.

[Japanese Samurai]

MFI special edition Motorsport technology details 2019-2020 reports Toyota TS050 hybrid powertrain.
https://www.as-books.jp/books/info.php?no=MFS20191227
https://www.as-books.jp/books/preview.php?no=7479 (preview)

Engine development
There were three weakness points in the Toyota 2015 spec engine.
1) Lack of competitiveness on high altitude circuits.
2) Slowdown of NA engine output improvement pace.
3) Lack of advantage in overtaking due to lack of low-speed torque.
Therefore, Toyota has determined that turbo engine is required.

To increase the theoretical thermal efficiency, it is necessary to raise the compression ratio and specific heat ratio.
Toyota was initially considering an L3 (inline 3 cylinder) engine for 2016 spec.
However, it was found that the load was too high and the strength was insufficient.
Therefore, Toyota examined a four-cylinder engine, and found that the strength was still insufficient.
(V4 was excluded for emotional, not technical, reasons.)

Then finally settled on a V6 2.4l engine. (Toyota was considering 2.1l V6 for 2017.)
When switching to V6 turbo, pendulum absorber was removed to reduce weight (3kg).

Toyota introduced pre-chamber ignition (PCI) in the 2017 spec.
It was a passive PCI with no injectors in the pre-chamber.
Toyota has developed an active pre-chamber as the 2019-20 spec, but has not entered the race due to development freeze.
The introduction of PCI increased the burning rate by 30%.

[Japanese Samurai]

Lithium-ion Battery
*The battery of the 2016 spec had a heat resistance of 65 degrees, so it was cooled using a radiator and air-con.
*From 2018 when the heat resistant temperature reached 95 degrees, the air-con was abolished and cooled only by a radiator.
This reduced the lap time by 0.26 seconds.
*In addition, the lap time was reduced by 0.08 seconds by reducing the loss of the front MGU in 2018.

[Japanese Samurai]

MFi reports that the maximum thermal efficiency of the TS050 engine (17, 18-19 spec) is over 44%.

[TF110]

Nice information. Thanks for sharing that. I wonder if they are being so open about the engine because they are not going to use it next season? The last time I recall this was the engine of the Porsche 919 V4 being shown off in detail because the car was retired. Obviously the TS050 is on its last season but what of the engine? I think it is amazing that there's still some development that can be done on it as well with the pre-chamber ignition.

[Japanese Samurai]

Kota Sera (motorsport journalist) says that Toyota denied to show TS050 engine parts such as piston because it uses LMP1 engine technology also to hypercar.
https://motor-fan.jp/tech/10012973

[TF110]

I see. Still up in the air whether it's the same engine or maybe an evolution of it. I could see it using the same engine and I could see it using the same technology such as piston design etc.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Japanese Samurai

MFi reports that the maximum thermal efficiency of the TS050 engine (17, 18-19 spec) is over 44%.

Recall a 2016 article where toyota claimed their new 2.4L V6 reached 45% thermal efficiency while old NA 3.4-3.7L barely could reach 40%, need to say however that as far I know, 2016 engine was dropped since 2017 TS050 engine was completely new from scratch.
Same year, mercedes claimed 47% for their f1 ICE.
Could someone kindly write the math formula to calculate hp power from fuel flow, thermal efficiency and a third value that actually can't remember (fuel heating value perhaps?)

[TF110]

Originally Posted by canaglia

Recall a 2016 article where toyota claimed their new 2.4L V6 reached 45% thermal efficiency while old NA 3.4-3.7L barely could reach 40%, need to say however that as far I know, 2016 engine was dropped since 2017 TS050 engine was completely new from scratch.
Same year, mercedes claimed 47% for their f1 ICE.
Could someone kindly write the math formula to calculate hp power from fuel flow, thermal efficiency and a third value that actually can't remember (fuel heating value perhaps?)

I think the fuel type would have to be taken into account. The values from that would need to be calculated. I'm not that proficient in math to know it

[Japanese Samurai]

MFi is reporting that max thermal efficiency of TS050 V8 is 41.7%.

[GT6]

watched a show about the Dakar rally and see Alonso is competing in that this month. for toyota.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Japanese Samurai

MFi is reporting that max thermal efficiency of TS050 V8 is 41.7%.

V8 was in the TS040, is that what you mean? So the V6 turbo is about 3% more efficient thermally.

I am not sure on the exact math, but that does mean that the V6 makes more power from the same amount of fuel than the V8 did.

[Japanese Samurai]

Sorry, yes. It's TS040 engine.

MFi says that the average engine power in the habitual use range in 2015 and 2017 is the same.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by TF110

V8 was in the TS040, is that what you mean? So the V6 turbo is about 3% more efficient thermally.

I am not sure on the exact math, but that does mean that the V6 makes more power from the same amount of fuel than the V8 did.

More efficient - which can then be converted to power or lower consumption.

[S griffin]

That will help them no end. It depends on what the others have up there sleeve to stop them

[canaglia]

as far I can remember TS040 3.7L V8 was a 0.3L increased RV8K, it improved its efficiency just because toyota decided to decrease power output, making it rev lower than 3.4L... it was ok for 2014 season, but for 2015 season porsche introduced a new and more efficent and powerful V4 2L turbo that made the NA toyota 3.7L terribly obsolete

[TF110]

Originally Posted by canaglia

as far I can remember TS040 3.7L V8 was a 0.3L increased RV8K, it improved its efficiency just because toyota decided to decrease power output, making it rev lower than 3.4L... it was ok for 2014 season, but for 2015 season porsche introduced a new and more efficent and powerful V4 2L turbo that made the NA toyota 3.7L terribly obsolete

It was a combination of Porsche using a battery hybrid too. The super capacitor was limited compared to a battery especially in terms of storage.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by TF110

It was a combination of Porsche using a battery hybrid too. The super capacitor was limited compared to a battery especially in terms of storage.

yeah that year porsche 919 was insanely OP, better chassis/aero, 8MJ hybrid and basically the only ICE among the 3 manufacturers able to reach 600hp due better turbo-petrol efficiency. Toyota ICE was too weak and yeah batteries were the real deal.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by canaglia

yeah that year porsche 919 was insanely OP, better chassis/aero, 8MJ hybrid and basically the only ICE among the 3 manufacturers able to reach 600hp due better turbo-petrol efficiency. Toyota ICE was too weak and yeah batteries were the real deal.

I think they had the only car in the 8mj class too? I know they were doing 8mj, but I don't think Toyota was 8mj until 2016. Audi were never going to be that high.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by TF110

I think they had the only car in the 8mj class too? I know they were doing 8mj, but I don't think Toyota was 8mj until 2016. Audi were never going to be that high.

yes 2015 919 was 8MJ, toyota 6MJ, audi 4MJ.

BTW porsche overkilled 2015 season, winning 6 races on 8. Audi won just at silverstone and spa while toyota scored just 2 podiums.
Remember buemi and davidson interview during 2015LM where they said they were lacking of power and torque from the ICE and about their car, despite the lack of pace, wasn't that bad at all, difference was 2015 TS040 was just an evolution of 2014 model, while 2015 919 was basically a fresh new car from scratch.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by S griffin

That will help them no end. It depends on what the others have up there sleeve to stop them

What?

[S griffin]

I mean Toyota’s upgrade. The only teams need something up their sleeve to prevent them winning more

[TF110]

Good article on Toyota's hypercar progress at DSC. Goes on to talk about things about the closeness of the project in terms of making it in time for next season at Silverstone.