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Old 25 Mar 2020, 10:36 (Ref:3966716)   #46
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Remember when BE had the idea of FOM commissioning a standard F1 engine from say Cosworth or Zytek, which could then be a fall back engine supply if engine manufacturer's left....
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Old 25 Mar 2020, 12:40 (Ref:3966761)   #47
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I don't follow. In any case it will never happen as the major manufacturers would not use any motor that is not of their own manufacture and those that aren't manufacturers would still need to find an engine.
Do you honestly believe a production-based engine manufactured by Renault would be competitive against one of Ferrari's making?
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Old 25 Mar 2020, 13:25 (Ref:3966770)   #48
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I am baffled by the talk of "production based" engines in F1. In my opinion, there is absolutely nothing wrong with bespoke racing engines. What makes engines expensive is the rules and level of freedom given to whoever makes the engine. Not that it is "bespoke". Someone tossed the idea of Judd engines. Those are bespoke and I assume relatively affordable all things considered.

Note, I am using a definition of bespoke to mean that these are purpose built "race" engines that are built to a published formula. Not engines built for a single team. Given that multiple teams use the same engines today in F1, there are no single customer solutions in F1 anyhow.

What should be considered (if large manufactures are looking to leave or slim down their involvement) is to create more simple engines. If F1 can't revert to simple ICE solutions (due to lack of support), then it may be that something like FE becomes the new F1. Mostly spec parts (lower cost) and looking to the future (all electric).

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Old 26 Mar 2020, 03:35 (Ref:3966870)   #49
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The regs plus the teams wanting to put outlandish off the planet engineering into the regs. I was in a small way involved in race car engineering and I can assure you that give an engineer a sum of money no matter what the size and he will do his best to spend it all. I had stand up arguments with one and we parted ways over the issue because he could not see why he should have been constrained in spending and some of his ideas were just off the planet.
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Old 26 Mar 2020, 05:33 (Ref:3966880)   #50
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What should be considered (if large manufactures are looking to leave or slim down their involvement) is to create more simple engines. If F1 can't revert to simple ICE solutions (due to lack of support), then it may be that something like FE becomes the new F1. Mostly spec parts (lower cost) and looking to the future (all electric).

Richard
I don't know Richard, from what I have seen of Formula E, it has a huge way to go before it is even close to filling F1's shoes. The cars are anemic and pathetic and the crowds which are not paying to watch are small, and the racing about as pleasurable to watch as someone using an electric drill.

Changing FE to F1 will kill the audience and will be the death knell of the formula. f2 would, I think be by far the better option from the point of drawing an audience.
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Old 26 Mar 2020, 06:27 (Ref:3966884)   #51
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I don't know Richard, from what I have seen of Formula E, it has a huge way to go before it is even close to filling F1's shoes. The cars are anemic and pathetic and the crowds which are not paying to watch are small, and the racing about as pleasurable to watch as someone using an electric drill.

Changing FE to F1 will kill the audience and will be the death knell of the formula. f2 would, I think be by far the better option from the point of drawing an audience.
Have you watched any of the recent races?

Personally I like Formula E, but if you watch the races from the perspective of "THIS ISN'T FORMULA 1 DAMNIT" you will always be disappointed.

Shift your perspective to "this isn't yet attempting to be anything other than its own series" and it makes a lot more sense. If they'd planned out their strategy to mirror F1, racing on the same circuits, trying to court all the same corporates then F1 fans would have murdered it for trying to be F1.

They do something different, in a different way, in different cities and locations (Mexico City & Monaco excepted) and... F1 fans murder it for not trying to be F1.

The world is going to be very different once this crisis subsides. Who knows what will happen to F1? The FIA and F1 management don't, that's for sure. Not yet.
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Old 26 Mar 2020, 10:14 (Ref:3966928)   #52
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I don't know Richard, from what I have seen of Formula E, it has a huge way to go before it is even close to filling F1's shoes.
I think we are talking about scenarios in which F1 has abandoned its shoes. Would a version of FE be better than our best memories of F1? No. But we are hypothesizing the collapse of current F1 under its own weight (a real and recognized problem) with the fallout of this pandemic being the trigger to bring the house of cards down. What reforms after the dust settles?

And as mentioned above, while not for everyone, FE is not that bad and does have manufacturer (i.e. money) support.

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Old 26 Mar 2020, 10:19 (Ref:3966931)   #53
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I don't know Richard, from what I have seen of Formula E, it has a huge way to go before it is even close to filling F1's shoes.
That was never there intention if you follow the upgrade path they outlined at the beginning. They have a huge advantage over F1 and that is they can run a race meeting in a city with just about no noise from the competing cars and therefore no complaints from those who do not like motor racing and yes those people do actually exist. The format and speed of an F1 race does not fill every motor sport enthusiast with joy either which may surprise some people. My son competed for many years and never during that time did he even bother looking at an F1 race and wouldn't have a clue who was who in it. Formula E has a place in motor sport, some like it and some don't.
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Old 26 Mar 2020, 13:40 (Ref:3966983)   #54
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also Merc's F1 budget, for example, is something like 50 times larger than that of a FE team.

if F1 teams moved to FE and operated at a lower level (say half of what they currently spend so in keeping with F1's proposed budget cap goals), that additional investment would surely advance FE dramatically.

is that a good thing or not is of course a different debate but for myself i am curious to see what that sort of investment could do for an all electric series and electric technology overall.
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Old 26 Mar 2020, 15:07 (Ref:3967006)   #55
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that additional investment would surely advance FE dramatically.
FE would have to avoid the usual cycle the kills most series. Which is is that more money (usually manufactures) triggers a ramp up in cost and complexity. Eventually it collapses, and something replaces the old system. Rinse and repeat. It is a chaotic time for top level prototype racing as it is in the middle of this cycle as the prior system is dying and nascent ideas are struggling to survive and be the next new thing.

My next comments are not friendly to those of us who like the engineering competition that exists today in F1, but successful series probably need to be run by an iron fist and with more and more spec components, cost caps, etc.

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Old 26 Mar 2020, 18:34 (Ref:3967055)   #56
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I think Liberty will quietly sell F1 to Indycar before years end.
Then we'll see some decent racing.
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Old 26 Mar 2020, 18:58 (Ref:3967063)   #57
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It wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world to have F1 cars to have Indycar style technical regs, after all they work on any circuit
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Old 26 Mar 2020, 19:06 (Ref:3967065)   #58
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FE would have to avoid the usual cycle the kills most series. Which is is that more money (usually manufactures) triggers a ramp up in cost and complexity. Eventually it collapses, and something replaces the old system. Rinse and repeat. It is a chaotic time for top level prototype racing as it is in the middle of this cycle as the prior system is dying and nascent ideas are struggling to survive and be the next new thing.

My next comments are not friendly to those of us who like the engineering competition that exists today in F1, but successful series probably need to be run by an iron fist and with more and more spec components, cost caps, etc.

Richard
Formula One did always had its own boom-and-bust cycle, but no earlier than in 2000's the legislator felt itself compelled to change regulations to reduce costs. Since then, various innovations were banned, homologation rules were introduced and parts became standardized. However, the call for further budget reductions remained.

This raises the question whether even more standardization would actually reduce costs. In case Formula One would become a (semi-)spec series and budgets would actually be reduced then, the series could end update like any other spec series, hence with empty grandstands and very little attention by the general public.
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Old 26 Mar 2020, 19:14 (Ref:3967068)   #59
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OK, so where do we go from here?

Another thing is teams will always spend what they have got. If you restrict their spending in one area, they’ll spend it in another. The thing cost cutting does is it helps the smaller teams, by not spending on areas that can put them out of business
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Old 26 Mar 2020, 23:02 (Ref:3967093)   #60
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This raises the question whether even more standardization would actually reduce costs.
IMHO, no and I dont think it ever has been about reducing costs. Its been about teams agreeing to not spend money on X but rather Y. The amount of money spent is based upon how much money you are able to spend. I know that sounds like circular logic, but I am trying to say... you spend what you have, you have whatever your sponsors (or financial benefactor) gives you. This is why cost caps are imperative. That is how you limit how much is spent. Another way is to continue to spend until it collapses.

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In case Formula One would become a (semi-)spec series and budgets would actually be reduced then, the series could end update like any other spec series, hence with empty grandstands and very little attention by the general public.
Regarding empty grandstands and the general public not caring, isn't that where we nearly are now? Spec components is not to blame for the decline in motorsports as most fans dont care where the parts come from!

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