OK, so where do we go from here?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Greem

69 posts and we're hitting the inevitable "What is Formula 1, anyway?" question.

I propose a variation of Godwin's Law - The Ten-Tenths Law:

I think I proposed something similar awhile back. I think mine was that all threads eventually become "how to fix F1". As I was posting last night I realized this had moved from post pandemic discussion back into the normal arguements.

Richard

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by midgetman

F1 could be popular as a spec series simply BECAUSE it is F1 and the marketing clout it has. You don't see young drivers saying "I aspire to be an F2 driver" because it's not the top step.

As long as it has the grandest prizes, the fastest cars, it will get the top coverage and the best drivers will flock to it. The fact that all those cars are the same won't matter a fig to the vast majority of fans.

But it's down to the coverage. In recent years the WEC had the wildest tech yet the smallest following. No coverage = few fans = no prestige. People don't care about tech or spec, they want the star drivers, the racing and the razamataz. F1 will have that whatever as long as there is mass market interest in "the sport".

I hate that BTW. People refer to the sport of F1. Surely the sport is motor racing, the branch is F1. We don't talk about "the sport of Premier League."

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Agree! Well said. I was trying to find a way of calling out that F1 is on top because... "F1". Its a unique case.

Richard

[Moneyseeker]

Ferrari to re-start car production at Modena and Maranello on 14th April - first bit of positive news for a while.

[bella]

very good news. even if it’s a provisional target, it’s up to the italian government to figure out a way of releasing the population back out into the wild to get the country up and producing again.

[coppice]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

F1 business journo Christian Sylt reporting that JP Morgan allegedly thinks Liberty Media could breach its banking covenants - it is $3bn in debt.....

Could they have to sell F1 to raise cash and could this see the return of BE to buy F1 back again in another of his sell for top dollar and buy back for nothing deals?

F1 marked its departure from both its credibility and its heritage by engaging the interest of people who call themselves F1 business journalists whose stock in trade is spouting learned bilge about bloody banking covenants .



It seems to me that if you add the number of people who agonise endlessly about which F1 TV package to buy to those who think F1's balance sheet is interesting, then subtract that lot from F1's 'fanbase' - the pepole who actually , y'know, like racing , you are left with a very small number. Suits me ...

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by coppice

F1 marked its departure from both its credibility and its heritage by engaging the interest of people who call themselves F1 business journalists whose stock in trade is spouting learned bilge about bloody banking covenants .



It seems to me that if you add the number of people who agonise endlessly about which F1 TV package to buy to those who think F1's balance sheet is interesting, then subtract that lot from F1's 'fanbase' - the pepole who actually , y'know, like racing , you are left with a very small number. Suits me ...

Sadly that is what you get as a listed stock your performance and financial health is always there to be seen, scrutinised and speculated on.

[bella]

Originally Posted by coppice

F1 marked its departure from both its credibility and its heritage by engaging the interest of people who call themselves F1 business journalists whose stock in trade is spouting learned bilge about bloody banking covenants.

particular those who haven't been in a f1 paddock for several years and are well-known harassers.

[chillibowl]

in fairness i like that F1 intersects with so many other things. for me, its more then just racing.

its technology, its heroes and villains, its business and finance, its banking, its individual, its team, its marketing and promotion, its history and modern, its people and cross cultural etc etc.

i would even say that because F1 intersects with so many other areas, how F1 responds to the post covid reality will in some ways be a microcosm of how the world as a whole responds.

personally imo, there will be more interest in F1 after this crisis not less. i think forward looking business are thinking about how to rebound strong and technology driven industries will be at the forefront of the new social structures. i am excited to see what they do in this space.

or F1/FOM will screw it all up and i will get to complain about budget caps.

either way it's a win win for me!

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

...could this see the return of BE to buy F1 back again in another of his sell for top dollar and buy back for nothing deals?

what an unbelievable turn of events that would be.

like who doesn't want to see the next chapter of this story?

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Two things for you to think about..

1. Why isn't your solution working for Williams?
2. Why should the sport be about who has the biggest budget?

When did I propose a solution that does not work for Williams and makes the sport, apparently, about having the biggest budget?

[Richard C]

I have a hard time seeing BE come back into the picture. When he was running things, as much as everyone says he was doing it himself, he clearly had people around him to make it happen. I wonder how many of those remain at this point. So he would have to rebuild the management structure as he see fit.

If he was to just buy so he can sell, how long would it take to "fix" things as he sees fit. I can see that being measured in years not months. When would he see his return on investment? He is also nearly 90 years old at this point. Why would he want to take on the hassle at this point in his life and for a payout that is likely not going to enjoy anytime soon? If his personality is that driven, what has he been doing since he sold the business?

I suppose he is enjoying his life in retirement without much in the way of responsibilities. It allows him to comment from the sidelines without actually having to produce results. He would have to be nuts to buy F1 back.

Richard

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I have a hard time seeing BE come back into the picture. When he was running things, as much as everyone says he was doing it himself, he clearly had people around him to make it happen. I wonder how many of those remain at this point. So he would have to rebuild the management structure as he see fit.



If he was to just buy so he can sell, how long would it take to "fix" things as he sees fit. I can see that being measured in years not months. When would he see his return on investment? He is also nearly 90 years old at this point. Why would he want to take on the hassle at this point in his life and for a payout that is likely not going to enjoy anytime soon? If his personality is that driven, what has he been doing since he sold the business?



I suppose he is enjoying his life in retirement without much in the way of responsibilities. It allows him to comment from the sidelines without actually having to produce results. He would have to be nuts to buy F1 back.



Richard

Wasn't Chrisitan Horner always mentioned as BE's alleged favourite to take over at the helm of F1, could be a BE/Red Bull deal with CH at the helm, if it were sold at all. You won't get another hedge fund type investor to buy F1, the golden age of big profits from TV rights and promoters is over as are the gold plated sponsorship deals. Liberty has shown so far that even with it's American know how, it has found it much harder to monetise and make the big profits that BE did.

Carey himself said they believed there was a vast timeline of untapped sponsors they thought weren't in F1 because there was no marketing team in place to make the calls, they built the team and then found the actual the pool of sponsors wasn't as large or willing as they imagined.

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[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

When did I propose a solution that does not work for Williams and makes the sport, apparently, about having the biggest budget?

I have no desire to go round and round on this with you or play games, but I will answer your question and then move on. Apologizes for my frankness in my reply.

Originally Posted by Pingguest

As if disallowing teams to finance a remedy for their uncompetitive car and hence leaving them in hopeless situation, would makes things better.

My reply was around how would that help Williams and that this is biggest budget wins.

So your counter to cost caps is that it prevents teams from fixing deficiencies because they are not ALLOWED to spend money. While money does not equal performance it is very close to that (my comment about biggest budget wins). So teams who are underfunded, CANT spend money they don't have to correct deficiencies (my comment about Williams as they are an example). Now, we can argue that Williams is poorly managed, but lets say that is not the issue. It is clear that teams like Mercedes and Ferrari are able to explore and develop in areas that even well managed, but underfunded, teams are not able to do so. So they are damned to remain fighting for mid-pack at best and hoping to not be last.

So yes, you didn't mention Williams. But you push forward an idea that for a hypothetical team that fits the Williams situation. I was taking your hypothetical and applying it to reality. Even so, the expected cap system has caps that I think are higher than what small teams might spend. So will may still have teams that are spending below the caps in the future. Either way, the status quo is clearly not working. Or your inclusion of a winky means that you were joking in your response? If so, my apologies for taking you seriously.

The "hopeless" situation is that teams that are not either owned by (Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault) or are strongly tied to (RBR + Honda) a manufacture are without hope of success. They may win a single race in exceeding rare situations (crazy weather, all leaders crash out, rule infractions decide race results, etc.) and have ZERO chance to challenge in championships. The BEST they can do is shine in the midfield and get an occasional podium. Thinking they can magically steal a march on the big boys with smart ideas (on a smaller budget) is a hypothetical possibility, but in reality is pure fantasy. If it does happen, it has no longevity and is just a blip (season or less).

This all has been discussed ad nauseam in the fixing F1 thread. Because the 2020 season is in doubt and we are now in the longest "off season" in a long long time, I don't care to deeply rehash this stuff unless there is something actually new to talk about.

Richard

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

Wasn't Chrisitan Horner always mentioned as BE's alleged favourite to take over at the helm of F1, could be a BE/Red Bull deal with CH at the helm, if it were sold at all. You won't get another hedge fund type investor to buy F1, the golden age of big profits from TV rights and promoters is over as are the gold plated sponsorship deals. Liberty has shown so far that even with it's American know how, it has found it much harder to monetise and make the big profits that BE did.

Carey himself said they believed there was a vast timeline of untapped sponsors they thought weren't in F1 because there was no marketing team in place to make the calls, they built the team and then found the actual the pool of sponsors wasn't as large or willing as they imagined.

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I agree with that idea. If Liberty was to sell, it's likely the buyer would be a consortium of those who are in the sport already. I can't object to the idea of BE injecting some funds. Partly as a way to stick a finger in the eye of Liberty.

Of course who knows, we might bounce back from the Pandemic and F1 might just roll right along! I understand why the 2021 regulations were pushed back a year, but I see that as a missed opportunity and wonder if those involved might actually regret that decision if large players pull out of the sport before 2021.

Richard

[Moneyseeker]

Well, well, well - we were only referring to BE on these pages a while ago and as if by magic he as popped up on motorsport.com to tell the World that if he was at the helm, he would abandon the 2020 season on safety grounds, rather than trying to reschedule races...

Little rascal...

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[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

Well, well, well - we were only referring to BE on these pages a while ago and as if by magic he as popped up on motorsport.com to tell the World that if he was at the helm, he would abandon the 2020 season on safety grounds, rather than trying to reschedule races...

Little rascal...

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I am sure he sits at home refreshing the F1 forum on tentenths.com looking for fresh F1 ideas.

Seriously, I would love to know how many recognizable names are either frequently contributors or lurkers on this forum. Clearly there are some here involved in the industry. There are times it seems that topics here show up in the news. Probably coincidence, but who knows.

Richard

[chillibowl]

i would prefer not to know...they probably think we are all idiots anyways!

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I am sure he sits at home refreshing the F1 forum on tentenths.com looking for fresh F1 ideas.

Seriously, I would love to know how many recognizable names are either frequently contributors or lurkers on this forum. Clearly there are some here involved in the industry. There are times it seems that topics here show up in the news. Probably coincidence, but who knows.

Richard

Invoice pads at the ready, BE only ever says something for a reason, he sniffs commercial blood and is waiting for the moment to go in for the inevitable....

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[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

i would prefer not to know...they probably think we are all idiots anyways!

I thought the feeling was mutual!

If I was them, I probably would think we were idiots. I for one, have my own perspective as a fan (which I think is valid) and I also think I am smart enough to envision what might be going on. But I have no illusions and that I am probably wrong most of the time. I just shoot for better than average speculation.

I would love to talk to someone who is inside to gauge how right/wrong I am. I suspect the largest mistakes we fans do is paint problems as being black/white and maybe simpler than they are. I know that in my day job it's always more complicated than it appears from the outside.

Richard

[P38 in workshop]

I always thought Bernie was maligned for some stuff that was unfairly attributed to him and should have been left at the feet of CVC.He was unbelievably efficient in transforming a casual alliance of tiny companies building racing cars into a cash generating monster.One of the traits that served him well was judging the value of things and if Liberty have driven the value of their asset down to a point where he might be interested in a bargain I doubt that the number of candles on his last birthday cake would inhibit him.I don't doubt he could recruit capable people to do the legwork if the incumbents didn't want to stick around and I don't suppose Ross Brawn would feel happy with Bernie calling the shots.Could it happen?We might soon find out.

[coppice]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

He was unbelievably efficient in transforming a casual alliance of tiny companies building racing cars into a cash generating monster.

I can't disagree with that judgment... except you think that was a GOOD thing?



All I know is that before he and his seedy pal Max got their greedy hands on the sport , I could not only afford to spend time at a couple of Grands Prix a year , I could walk around the paddock (and pits in the evening ) and not be treated as an inconvenient civilian by security thugs .

[Peter Mallett]

As with all things power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

The early years when he took on Balestre and Ferrari on behalf of the garagistes he was a force for good. But he saw the commercial possibilities and started to lock in the teams resulting in the Concorde agreement.

[S griffin]

Bernie saying that he would cancel the whole 2020 season if he was in charge takes some convincing. Of course it's easier to say you would do the right thing when you are no longer in charge. I still remember how he refused to pull the plug on the 2012 Bahrain GP, despite the monumental opposition to the race going ahead. He had to find a few excuses to justify them being there

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I have a hard time seeing BE come back into the picture. When he was running things, as much as everyone says he was doing it himself, he clearly had people around him to make it happen. I wonder how many of those remain at this point. So he would have to rebuild the management structure as he see fit.


Richard

He actually ran FOM from a room in his London home - not his Biggin Hill office that was his investment group's H/Q - and he did so with the aid of just one personal assistant.

[P38 in workshop]

Originally Posted by coppice

I can't disagree with that judgment... except you think that was a GOOD thing?



All I know is that before he and his seedy pal Max got their greedy hands on the sport , I could not only afford to spend time at a couple of Grands Prix a year , I could walk around the paddock (and pits in the evening ) and not be treated as an inconvenient civilian by security thugs .

Did you ever ask one of the old time mechanics how much they enjoyed being out of a job at the end of the racing season?I agree that the barriers are too impenetrable these days and the retinue of hangers on has become much too large.