[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[hondafan37]

Ginetta Exploring LMH Options as Platform Provider

https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...form-provider/

[Mike E]

Good to hear they are still interested and also have not ruled out running their LMP1 next year. WEC will need all the cars they can get.

[canaglia]

sa far I know there isn't a proper technical rule for hypercars carbon tub... so, a hypercar looking bodywork mounted on an existent lmp1 carbon tub should make the car legit for the new class

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by canaglia

sa far I know there isn't a proper technical rule for hypercars carbon tub... so, a hypercar looking bodywork mounted on an existent lmp1 carbon tub should make the car legit for the new class

They must enlarge the front area to meet 1.8 m2, but of course this is possible.

[PhilipR]

Just a thought, now that DTM seems to be on the rocks, can the Audi or BMW DTM chassis and engines be used for a potential LMH programme?

Maybe not for Audi at this moment, but for BMW, they will have plenty of chassis and engines laying around (if DTM folds that is), the engines already produce around 600 bhp so to get them to 670 should not be too difficult with a hybrid and the chassis must be some of the most advanced chassis in the racing world.

There are probably other elements of a DTM car that they could carry over to an LMH car which might make switching to LMH a cheaper proposition than developing a new car.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by PhilipR

Just a thought, now that DTM seems to be on the rocks, can the Audi or BMW DTM chassis and engines be used for a potential LMH programme?

Maybe not for Audi at this moment, but for BMW, they will have plenty of chassis and engines laying around (if DTM folds that is), the engines already produce around 600 bhp so to get them to 670 should not be too difficult with a hybrid and the chassis must be some of the most advanced chassis in the racing world.

There are probably other elements of a DTM car that they could carry over to an LMH car which might make switching to LMH a cheaper proposition than developing a new car.

last year dtm were in about 600-630hp range of power with a fuel flow ratio of 95kg/h, I'm sure 670hp are quite achievable with likely >100kg/h like gt500 cars used to run 4-5 years ago. With hybrid would be required less power from ICE and a lower flow ratio.
Guess big issue is that these engines will require more robust parts to be reliable enough for 24H endurance and even better would be a slightly displacement increase to get same power/torque output with less turbo boost to get a better reliability. Not to mention these engine are insanely expensive anyhow.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by PhilipR

Just a thought, now that DTM seems to be on the rocks, can the Audi or BMW DTM chassis and engines be used for a potential LMH programme?

Maybe not for Audi at this moment, but for BMW, they will have plenty of chassis and engines laying around (if DTM folds that is), the engines already produce around 600 bhp so to get them to 670 should not be too difficult with a hybrid and the chassis must be some of the most advanced chassis in the racing world.

There are probably other elements of a DTM car that they could carry over to an LMH car which might make switching to LMH a cheaper proposition than developing a new car.

It's an interesting conundrum, isn't it? I'm not sure the chassis is all that relevant, though. IIRC those have been pretty much the same since 2012 and have been used by Audi, Mercedes and Aston as well. So that's an investment that can be rather comfortably written off by now. The engines are a different story - as things stand right now, BMW spent A LOT of money on those for only a season and a half of racing and it doesn't seem to be too farfetched that the people at BMW Motorsport will want to keep on racing these engines, not the least because it'll save their jobs.

The question, however, is "Where?". I don't think Japan is an important enough market to warrant a factory program in Super GT, so that's probably out.

Additionally, I don't think a Class-1 car would be legal or competitive in LMH, so that's out as well, I guess.

The logical way to go would be to build an LMH or LMDH around the DTM engine but not with a DTM chassis. The only problem with that: BMW has had a policy of not racing what they don't sell since exiting from Formula 1. And since BMW's sportiest road car right now is the M8, which is decidedly not Hypercar-material, there needs to be a rather fundamental change in corporate policy before an LMH or LMDH program can happen.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

It's an interesting conundrum, isn't it? I'm not sure the chassis is all that relevant, though. IIRC those have been pretty much the same since 2012 and have been used by Audi, Mercedes and Aston as well. So that's an investment that can be rather comfortably written off by now. The engines are a different story - as things stand right now, BMW spent A LOT of money on those for only a season and a half of racing and it doesn't seem to be too farfetched that the people at BMW Motorsport will want to keep on racing these engines, not the least because it'll save their jobs.

The question, however, is "Where?". I don't think Japan is an important enough market to warrant a factory program in Super GT, so that's probably out.

Additionally, I don't think a Class-1 car would be legal or competitive in LMH, so that's out as well, I guess.

The logical way to go would be to build an LMH or LMDH around the DTM engine but not with a DTM chassis. The only problem with that: BMW has had a policy of not racing what they don't sell since exiting from Formula 1. And since BMW's sportiest road car right now is the M8, which is decidedly not Hypercar-material, there needs to be a rather fundamental change in corporate policy before an LMH or LMDH program can happen.

It is publicly know that BMW will break from that policy and is interested in Le Mans - but only with zero emission technology to support the i-models.
So DTM engined LMh is unlikely, but if it could be done cheap, then the marketing value could be worth more than policy.

[canaglia]

the main issues are costs... a manufacturer willing to enter in lmdh just needs of a 600hp engine and is much more convenient to tune a gt3/road derivated engine than use an expensive bespoke motor to get the same performances.
Fuel efficiency isn't a problem since fuel tank and refueling rig will be set by bop..... just think about a possible porsche lmdh... is cheaper to use the macan 3.6L V6 turbo or the 919 2L V4 turbo, the latter likely costs like 3xlmdh...

[Deleted]

Even though this is probably just the very first step in the slow progress towards modern performance balancing in F1, I still wish something like this, applied to LMP standards, had been implemented to the successor of LMP1, instead of what is being pushed LMH/LMDH. What Wolff says here makes more sense than what the ACO heads have said since... I don't even remember when, 2017 or 2018

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14...eball-bat-move

"I am a fan of the meritocracy of F1, the best man and best machine wins," said Wolff when asked by Autosport. "And this is how it always was, no gimmicky stuff like in some other sports, where the show people have added components that have diluted the sport. I hate any kind of balance of performance. It becomes a political game and a political world championship, and has no place in F1."

"What has been introduced with the new ATR is a possibility for the lowered ranked teams to slowly creep back in terms of development scope to where the leading teams are. It's tiny percentages every year so that's not going to make a big difference from one year to the other, but it's going to balance the field out after a few years."

[Sodemo]

If motorsport is serious about using electric power, they should offer it up as a free development area. I know the costs would likely go through the roof, but if its to stay relevant and offer something to manufacturers to compete, then that's what I think needs to happen.

The same with F1. I dont follow F1 any more but I am not sure what hybrid really means for the drivetrain of a modern F1 car, do they use batteries any more to supplement the power from the engine like they did in 2009-2013?

[Greem]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

The same with F1. I dont follow F1 any more but I am not sure what hybrid really means for the drivetrain of a modern F1 car, do they use batteries any more to supplement the power from the engine like they did in 2009-2013?

Yes. There are many places that explain what a PU is these days, here's just one:

https://motorsport.tech/formula-1/f1-engines-explained

In short: there's a battery that is charged by both the turbo side (MGU-H) and the mechanical side (MGU-K), and it can be used to keep the turbo spinning at maximum efficiency _and_ provide an extra 160hp at the wheels.

They may be stupendously expensive to produce, but close to 1000hp from a 1.6 litre turbo is pretty damned impressive.

F1 lost the plot, however, by not fanfaring the massive increase in fuel efficiency. OK, they're still pulling very low MPG, but they're now over 50% thermal efficiency and they use somewhere in the region of between 25-50% less fuel for a given mileage at race pace than they used to.

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by Greem

Yes. There are many places that explain what a PU is these days, here's just one:

https://motorsport.tech/formula-1/f1-engines-explained

F1 lost the plot, however, by not fanfaring the massive increase in fuel efficiency. OK, they're still pulling very low MPG, but they're now over 50% thermal efficiency and they use somewhere in the region of between 25-50% less fuel for a given mileage at race pace than they used to.

This has always confused me. Usually the only time they talk about hybrid tech is to moan about it.

[S griffin]

The way I see it is that F1 doesn’t see hybrid as the be all and end all. After all, it hasn’t exactly bought the manufacturers back

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Greem

Yes. There are many places that explain what a PU is these days, here's just one:

https://motorsport.tech/formula-1/f1-engines-explained

In short: there's a battery that is charged by both the turbo side (MGU-H) and the mechanical side (MGU-K), and it can be used to keep the turbo spinning at maximum efficiency _and_ provide an extra 160hp at the wheels.

They may be stupendously expensive to produce, but close to 1000hp from a 1.6 litre turbo is pretty damned impressive.

F1 lost the plot, however, by not fanfaring the massive increase in fuel efficiency. OK, they're still pulling very low MPG, but they're now over 50% thermal efficiency and they use somewhere in the region of between 25-50% less fuel for a given mileage at race pace than they used to.

actually only mgu-H is used as anti-turbo lag device, infact in next years mgu-H will be dropped because actual f1 turbo engines basically have (almost) 0 turbo lag. 1000hp is the combined power that likely only mercedes and ferrari PU can reach during qualifying (with hybrid boost release set on max), ICE alone should be in the range of 800hp that is however impressive considering their lifespan (about 5000km, even if only ferrari and mercedes can reach so far) and average consumes 305km/110kg = about 2.7km per kg... before v6 turbo, V8 2.4L NA needed 240L to run 305km

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by S griffin

The way I see it is that F1 doesn’t see hybrid as the be all and end all. After all, it hasn’t exactly bought the manufacturers back

because most of manufacturers can't simply sustain a f1 program or even worse have no money neither enough know how on turbo and hybrid technologies...

despite being in their current f1 golden era, mercedes decided to stay longer in f1 only recently

[Greem]

Originally Posted by canaglia

actually only mgu-H is used as anti-turbo lag device, infact in next years mgu-H

Being accurate, I was answering a question about the use of the battery in the hybrid system. I didn't say which bit was used for anti-lag!

I still think the massive increase in fuel efficiency is worthy of mention, despite them still needing several tonnes of fuel to get to the supermarket and back.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Greem

Being accurate, I was answering a question about the use of the battery in the hybrid system. I didn't say which bit was used for anti-lag!

I still think the massive increase in fuel efficiency is worthy of mention, despite them still needing several tonnes of fuel to get to the supermarket and back.

well, need however to say that f1 engines have that kind of fuel efficiency only by using special bespoke and super classified petrols... maybe "petrol" isn't even the correct word to say at this point...
usually 1L petrol is 0.75kg, there were rumors that petronas fuel used by mercedes teams some seasons ago was 1.2kg/1L

BTW in broad terms, current v6 revving up to about 12000-12500rpm have consumes similiar to a hypercar/supercar large displacement engine, roughly 2-2.5km/1L (I mean driving the hyper/supercar fast).
Downside of all this is the insane cost of each single ICE and the ever more insane costs of about 50-80 testing units sacrified to homologate a single engine evo1/2/3... that's why is more likely that f1 is going to lose manufacturers than getting new ones...
and I didn't mention hybrid hardware yet
hybrid had to change motorsport, by now just killed lmp1...

[S griffin]

F1 fuel efficiency has been good in recent seasons. Maybe it's time though for them to look at alternative fuels. It would add an extra challenge.

Personally I don't mind the current engines too much. But the costs of them should come down. That way it can still be attractive to manufacturers. But there was no need for LMP1 and F1 to go down the same path with engines. Everything was working fine in both, now manufacturers have pulled out of WEC and we have to see if the new hypercar rules can save it

[Napolis]

IMO GTE should be replaced by GT.
Basically GT3 with 600HP
Lots of eligible existing cars.
Half the cost of a GTE.
We think would be just as fast.

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by Napolis

IMO GTE should be replaced by GT.
Basically GT3 with 600HP
Lots of eligible existing cars.
Half the cost of a GTE.
We think would be just as fast.

It doesn't even have to be as fast. LMP1/LMH and LMP2 are being slowed down. It would help if the GTs were slowed a bit too.

[Napolis]

Originally Posted by Mike E

It doesn't even have to be as fast. LMP1/LMH and LMP2 are being slowed down. It would help if the GTs were slowed a bit too.

True. It will be interesting to see if LMDh can reach 3:30 lap times with the new lower HP of 670. We believe our LMH will still be able to.

[broadrun96]

Except without fail every GT3 builder said that's GTE pricing at least. Hell GT3s are already close enough to GTE prices as to be basically the same cost

[Napolis]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Except without fail every GT3 builder said that's GTE pricing at least. Hell GT3s are already close enough to GTE prices as to be basically the same cost

488GTE 900K$++
004C GT3 @600HP with MUCH lower running/spare cost 600K$
"DSC understands that the base cost of a new GT3 Aston Martin Vantage is c.£425k GBP, that translates to c.£550k GBP for a car fully equipped for competition.
Whilst the cost of the GTE spec car is firmly “price on application”, the reality is that the cost is likely to be around 50% more – say £750k GBP."

[hondafan37]

DTM Considering Uprated GT3s Or LMDh In Survival Plans

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2020/0...val-plans.html