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Old 10 Jun 2020, 20:27 (Ref:3981216)   #7516
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Originally Posted by S griffin View Post
The way I see it is that F1 doesn’t see hybrid as the be all and end all. After all, it hasn’t exactly bought the manufacturers back
because most of manufacturers can't simply sustain a f1 program or even worse have no money neither enough know how on turbo and hybrid technologies...

despite being in their current f1 golden era, mercedes decided to stay longer in f1 only recently
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Old 10 Jun 2020, 22:18 (Ref:3981223)   #7517
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actually only mgu-H is used as anti-turbo lag device, infact in next years mgu-H
Being accurate, I was answering a question about the use of the battery in the hybrid system. I didn't say which bit was used for anti-lag!

I still think the massive increase in fuel efficiency is worthy of mention, despite them still needing several tonnes of fuel to get to the supermarket and back.
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Old 10 Jun 2020, 22:41 (Ref:3981225)   #7518
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Originally Posted by Greem View Post
Being accurate, I was answering a question about the use of the battery in the hybrid system. I didn't say which bit was used for anti-lag!

I still think the massive increase in fuel efficiency is worthy of mention, despite them still needing several tonnes of fuel to get to the supermarket and back.

well, need however to say that f1 engines have that kind of fuel efficiency only by using special bespoke and super classified petrols... maybe "petrol" isn't even the correct word to say at this point...
usually 1L petrol is 0.75kg, there were rumors that petronas fuel used by mercedes teams some seasons ago was 1.2kg/1L

BTW in broad terms, current v6 revving up to about 12000-12500rpm have consumes similiar to a hypercar/supercar large displacement engine, roughly 2-2.5km/1L (I mean driving the hyper/supercar fast).
Downside of all this is the insane cost of each single ICE and the ever more insane costs of about 50-80 testing units sacrified to homologate a single engine evo1/2/3... that's why is more likely that f1 is going to lose manufacturers than getting new ones...
and I didn't mention hybrid hardware yet
hybrid had to change motorsport, by now just killed lmp1...
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Old 11 Jun 2020, 08:20 (Ref:3981266)   #7519
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F1 fuel efficiency has been good in recent seasons. Maybe it's time though for them to look at alternative fuels. It would add an extra challenge.

Personally I don't mind the current engines too much. But the costs of them should come down. That way it can still be attractive to manufacturers. But there was no need for LMP1 and F1 to go down the same path with engines. Everything was working fine in both, now manufacturers have pulled out of WEC and we have to see if the new hypercar rules can save it
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Old 17 Jun 2020, 01:51 (Ref:3982395)   #7520
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IMO GTE should be replaced by GT.
Basically GT3 with 600HP
Lots of eligible existing cars.
Half the cost of a GTE.
We think would be just as fast.
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Old 17 Jun 2020, 12:02 (Ref:3982464)   #7521
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IMO GTE should be replaced by GT.
Basically GT3 with 600HP
Lots of eligible existing cars.
Half the cost of a GTE.
We think would be just as fast.



It doesn't even have to be as fast. LMP1/LMH and LMP2 are being slowed down. It would help if the GTs were slowed a bit too.
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Old 17 Jun 2020, 15:45 (Ref:3982492)   #7522
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It doesn't even have to be as fast. LMP1/LMH and LMP2 are being slowed down. It would help if the GTs were slowed a bit too.
True. It will be interesting to see if LMDh can reach 3:30 lap times with the new lower HP of 670. We believe our LMH will still be able to.
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Old 17 Jun 2020, 18:39 (Ref:3982523)   #7523
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Except without fail every GT3 builder said that's GTE pricing at least. Hell GT3s are already close enough to GTE prices as to be basically the same cost
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Old 17 Jun 2020, 20:15 (Ref:3982539)   #7524
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Except without fail every GT3 builder said that's GTE pricing at least. Hell GT3s are already close enough to GTE prices as to be basically the same cost
488GTE 900K$++
004C GT3 @600HP with MUCH lower running/spare cost 600K$
"DSC understands that the base cost of a new GT3 Aston Martin Vantage is c.£425k GBP, that translates to c.£550k GBP for a car fully equipped for competition.
Whilst the cost of the GTE spec car is firmly “price on application”, the reality is that the cost is likely to be around 50% more – say £750k GBP."
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Old 19 Jun 2020, 21:14 (Ref:3982836)   #7525
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DTM Considering Uprated GT3s Or LMDh In Survival Plans

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2020/0...val-plans.html
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Old 19 Jun 2020, 22:51 (Ref:3982850)   #7526
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Ooo, LMDh. Interesting not really DTM to my mind, but I remember the shorter Group C races back in the day.
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Old 19 Jun 2020, 23:12 (Ref:3982853)   #7527
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Originally Posted by hondafan37 View Post
DTM Considering Uprated GT3s Or LMDh In Survival Plans

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2020/0...val-plans.html
"The GT3 proposal would see all-Pro grids with single drivers per car and retention of the Sprint race format currently seen in DTM. The cars would be performance balanced at a higher level than at present in order to match the lap times with DTM having their own Balance of Performance formula."


so... without even considering power, they expect that a 1300kg road derivated racecar with a totally uncomparable aero should match DTM laptimes?


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Old 20 Jun 2020, 17:42 (Ref:3982959)   #7528
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Originally Posted by canaglia View Post
"The GT3 proposal would see all-Pro grids with single drivers per car and retention of the Sprint race format currently seen in DTM. The cars would be performance balanced at a higher level than at present in order to match the lap times with DTM having their own Balance of Performance formula."


so... without even considering power, they expect that a 1300kg road derivated racecar with a totally uncomparable aero should match DTM laptimes?


I thought the same thing. Even with a drop in weight, they would need much much better tires. Super GT type tires and a bigger wing+splitter.
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Old 20 Jun 2020, 21:16 (Ref:3982975)   #7529
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I thought the same thing. Even with a drop in weight, they would need much much better tires. Super GT type tires and a bigger wing+splitter.

there a lot of issues in every aspect...


1. power, the least issue. GT3 engines are basically road engines, throw away restrictors and mandatory turbo pressures and 600hp are quite reachable. Surely would be required a 120L fuel tank for the race and a better cooling system but being dtm a sprint format, there will not be many reliability issues about this. Gearbox should be fine too.



2. aero and chassis. The biggest issue. Basically all gt3 cars stock and unballasted are >1200kg, it's really unlikely drop some other mass from them since chassis need to be the same of road cars and all other features are already reduced to the essentials. The only way to save some mass would be drop off all electric stuff that manages ABS, TCS etc...
but no way will be possible to make them 1070kg heavy (DTM reg. min. weight). Considering also that 1070kg is driver included... basically a dtm car weight is <1000kg.
Aero, well... basically no match. You can give bigger splitter/rear wing and a GTE-like diffuser but a GT car will never develope the same downforce and cornering speed of a dtm.

3. maybe the only positive side of the matter.... I'm quite sure gtopen/IMSA michelin are way way better than dtm hankook compound that are made just to force driver to change tyres due show necessities (like pirelli in f1).



so making a quick comparison
2019 DTM hockeneim fastest pole: 1.28.9
2019 gtopen hockeneim fastest pole: 1.36.7

considering that gtopen gt3 use michelin and are usually a bit lighter than SRO/FIA bop, well these GT3+ need to improve of just 8 seconds at hockeneim as said... good luck.


Forgot a little detail... all these updates required will increase production and racing costs... so... live and let (dtm) die.
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Old 21 Jun 2020, 13:55 (Ref:3983063)   #7530
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Originally Posted by hondafan37 View Post
DTM Considering Uprated GT3s Or LMDh In Survival Plans

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2020/0...val-plans.html
I heard that story as well but I wish DTM would run GT3 and LMDh cars.

Still, good luck to their survival plan and if it succeed, let's hope that they won't shove those regulations to Super GT much like last time.
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