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Old 13 Jul 2020, 09:33 (Ref:3987857)   #426
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I really don't understand why everyone thinks Ferrari is so important and deserves special treatment. They are just a long-standing team that has had some good times and some bad times.

Yet they get financial and other favours from the FIA/FOM/F1. Commentators keep saying that F1 needs Ferrari to be successful, they get excited when they are and bemoan their failures. I could/should/would be unaffected by it all but the contrarian in me results in me enjoying Ferrari's discomfort. Not because of the team themselves but because everyone else is fawning over them.

The off-season "agreement" over last year's engines shows the favouritism they enjoy. No other team gets to keep their misdemeanours under wraps. Clearly the 2019 Ferrari engine was illegal in some way, yet they have kept all their points from last year, they received no penalty of any kind, and they even had the nature of the illegality hushed up. Compare that with "spygate" when McLaren were fined $100m for receiving confidential technical information from another team (Ferrari, coincidentally or not).

The performance of the Ferrari engine in all cars this year shows that when it is legal, it is probably the worst engine in F1 rather than the best.

Poor Carlos Sainz must be wondering what sort of mistake he has made with his 2021 contract. Ferrari slow and in disarray, while McLaren is in renaissance.
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Old 13 Jul 2020, 10:08 (Ref:3987865)   #427
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Everywhere says that whatever was illegal about their PU last year is a total secret, but the Autosport F1 podcast pretty openly discussed that they were fiddling fuel flow sensors and injecting more than allowed when they knew that the sensors weren't taking a reading. Have I missed something there?

Not sure how to feel about yesterdays entanglement. Did the sausage kerb bounce Leclerc's car up into the air? Would they have come together with that bunny hop?
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Old 13 Jul 2020, 10:47 (Ref:3987876)   #428
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Ferrari really look out of sorts and in my view need a fresh approach. They’ve always had their dark days lest we forget, but they always manage to come back once they’ve found the right approach to take. Wonder if we will see some staff changes before 2021?
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Old 13 Jul 2020, 11:06 (Ref:3987882)   #429
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Ferrari really look out of sorts and in my view need a fresh approach. They’ve always had their dark days lest we forget, but they always manage to come back once they’ve found the right approach to take. Wonder if we will see some staff changes before 2021?
i think staff changes are given, they need to blame someone, they just need to decide who
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Old 13 Jul 2020, 11:08 (Ref:3987883)   #430
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Everywhere says that whatever was illegal about their PU last year is a total secret, but the Autosport F1 podcast pretty openly discussed that they were fiddling fuel flow sensors and injecting more than allowed when they knew that the sensors weren't taking a reading. Have I missed something there?
I need to listen to that podcast, but there was a few posts on F1technical.net that provided a very workable theory as to what was going on. The method in the theory would also be hard to implement with the addition of a second flow meter (as has been mandated by the FIA).

In the end, its likely that everyone knows it was illegal and how it worked, but direct evidence of its usage may be hard to prove. The method in the theory would not show up in the data. The method also could both use more or LESS fuel than the sensor reports so you could use both modes at different times and average out over a longer period of time (lap or race length ) to a flow level that is legal.

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Old 13 Jul 2020, 13:06 (Ref:3987917)   #431
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Not sure how to feel about yesterdays entanglement. Did the sausage kerb bounce Leclerc's car up into the air? Would they have come together with that bunny hop?
I am pretty sure it was not a sausage kerb..... watching the onboard camera from Raikonnen's Alfa behind it looks like Leclerc's left rear wheel hit Vettels right rear and it was that which launched Leclerc. I guess that both being the driven wheels that caused a greater effect.
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Old 13 Jul 2020, 13:08 (Ref:3987918)   #432
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I am pretty sure it was not a sausage kerb..... watching the onboard camera from Raikonnen's Alfa behind it looks like Leclerc's rear wheel hit Vettels right rear and it was that which launched Leclerc
Correct, that's exactly how I saw it too.
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Old 13 Jul 2020, 13:28 (Ref:3987923)   #433
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Whatever, Leclerc messed up.
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Old 13 Jul 2020, 14:30 (Ref:3987945)   #434
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Old 13 Jul 2020, 14:40 (Ref:3987953)   #435
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I have found the internets response to the incident somewhat interesting. Vettel, like Lewis, is one of those drivers who can do no right. Even when he is driven into by his team mate, it somehow still becomes him being the bad guy. Comments like "At least Leclerc is more humble than Vettel" being posted. People cannot help but find an excuse to hate Vettel. Similar to Lewis - he could save a child from a burning building, and the comments would be "Why not 2 children?".

F1 itself is partly responsible for this weird fanaticism that we see now. The way the radios are edited especially is extremely 1 dimensional. Building a personality around the drivers. They want drivers to have single personality traits, like they are sitcom characters. Leclerc is the likeable one, so lets portray him nicely. Even when he has a ridiculous rant and demands the Hockenheim run off be changed because he crashed - we'll ignore that because it doesn't fit our narrative. I'm not sure Charles is as squeaky clean as what he is shown as. When you strip away the way F1 portrays the drivers, Leclerc is a LOT like early Vettel. He drives well, he makes mistakes, he has rants you don't agree with, but then can do well in the media (Leclerc on game streaming is very similar to how Vettel was when he appeared on Top Gear).

I firmly believe if Ferrari don't change their management structure from the top down, they will not win a title, and Leclerc will follow the same footsteps as Vettel and Alonso before him. He'll get annoyed, he'll make stupid mistakes, he'll bottle it, and he'll end up with nowhere to go. And it'll partly be down to Ferraris inability to do basic stuff.

Leclerc can, and should win titles. But so should have Alonso and Vettel with Ferrari. And whilst you can point fingers at both of those drivers for not achieving it, you can also find plenty of Ferrari screw ups that shouldn't happen. I believe Leclerc should win a title - I just don't think it will be with Ferrari.

Max may find the same at Red Bull for different reasons. Horner is like a child with ADHD. He and Marko are fascinated with young talent. So, again, like Vettel and Danny Ric, if Max is in a seat and hasn't won a title (or even if he has), and a new young kid comes along, Max will get booted out quicker than a COVID sufferer not wearing a mask, and wondering wtf he did wrong. Meanwhile Horner will be like "Max? Max....? I think I knew a Max once".

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Old 13 Jul 2020, 15:08 (Ref:3987964)   #436
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I need to listen to that podcast, but there was a few posts on F1technical.net that provided a very workable theory as to what was going on. The method in the theory would also be hard to implement with the addition of a second flow meter (as has been mandated by the FIA).



In the end, its likely that everyone knows it was illegal and how it worked, but direct evidence of its usage may be hard to prove. The method in the theory would not show up in the data. The method also could both use more or LESS fuel than the sensor reports so you could use both modes at different times and average out over a longer period of time (lap or race length ) to a flow level that is legal.



Richard
That's what I've understood, Ferrari could demonstrate how without directly cheating at all, they could make the engine match the dips in the sensor and flow more fuel. Even with 2 flow sensors there was still a problem. Ferrari reverse engineering the sensors to take advantage of a flaw is not disallowed under the rules, it's the grey area of not banned but not specifically allowed. The FIA agreed to seal the decision not to protect Ferrari but rather protect their sensors and not have a problem with other teams later. They have since directed teams that they know what they're looking for and any indication of sensor malfeasance will be punished in the future.

But it's Ferrari, anything you release people will claim there's more hidden. Ironically proving exactly what people want to argue against. Ferrari is important for F1 for the general public, racing fans already watch. It's about getting that occasional watcher to hear Ferrari and their ears perk up. Get that lifestyle idiot who wants a Ferrari to talk F1 or even be there at an event. Sorry but no one else in F1 does that, Mclaren is probably the next closest. No one is exciting to hear about the new Renault in social media, it's aspirational marketing.

Personally think it's garbage and more and more of the stars are proving to be fakes with rented cars and property, fake cash and followers from computer banks in Russia. But that's what companies want now, the InstaFaChat Tok crowd to paraphrase a US college football coach.
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Old 13 Jul 2020, 18:23 (Ref:3988045)   #437
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That's what I've understood, Ferrari could demonstrate how without directly cheating at all, they could make the engine match the dips in the sensor and flow more fuel. Even with 2 flow sensors there was still a problem. Ferrari reverse engineering the sensors to take advantage of a flaw is not disallowed under the rules, it's the grey area of not banned but not specifically allowed. The FIA agreed to seal the decision not to protect Ferrari but rather protect their sensors and not have a problem with other teams later. They have since directed teams that they know what they're looking for and any indication of sensor malfeasance will be punished in the future.
So I think we are hearing the same theory. It's about the sampling frequency of the sensor and the expectation that it's sampling frequency would be high enough to accurately portray the actual fuel flow. This is an area I have some educational experience in (sampling rates and things like "Nyquist frequency"). The easiest way to explain this to people is that scenario in which you see a movie/video of a rotating wheel. At some wheel speed/frame rate combo, you see the wheel start to slow down and stop. You could then say that the video image would be a poor method to determine the rotational speed of the wheel. If the wheel turns one full revolution in the time it takes to take an image, the wheel will appear to be stationary.

As you say, you can create a higher dynamic flow that is a series of pulses (with peaks and valleys) and sync up where you peak or valley is to the time in which the sensor samples the flow. So you can game the sensor. You can make your flow look faster or slower than it really is. Back to the wheel analogy, the FIA looks at the wheel and sees a reasonable flow rate. Then in-between samples, Ferrari might be injecting more or less fuel than when it was last sampled. Then they put the flow rate back up to the right value just in time for the next sample is taken. I think the sensors provide data at 2K Hz. What I don't know is if the sensors sample internally at a higher rate and even then, how long the sample period is. You probably could determine this by calculating the speed of sound in the fuel to determine the likely length of internal sampling period (which is not the same as the sampling frequency). My point is that in-between those periods, the sensor might be blind to flow changes.

Having two sensors makes it much harder, but not impossible to game. I suspect the system is self tuning in that they have both an actual desired flow rate and a "sensor detected" flow rate. You could adjust the phase and frequency of your pulses to give you both your desired rate plus the detected rate. But if you have two sensors to fool, those might be sampling at slightly different times or even if sampling at the same exact time, the pulses may be out of phase from each other within the two sensors. This would make it very difficult to game successfully.

Higher sampling rates would help. But a physical system (likely homologated) that removes high frequency "flow pulses" to a rate that is within the sampling rate window that the sensor supports "should" solve the problem. But that physical flow filter system could potentially be gamed. I am curious if the output from the second sensor is available to the ECU. If not, then given the potential for slightly different sampling rate or phase shifts, the attempts to fool sensor #1 might be very visible to sensor #2.

In this end, this system was probably used primary for short burst of speed (such as for qualifying), but is does nothing to improve overall "efficiency" of the power unit. This plus some type of oil burning (or some other method) was likely part of the overall solution. And the improved clarity on oil burning probably hurt not just Ferrari.

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Old 14 Jul 2020, 21:37 (Ref:3988311)   #438
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I'd just like to underline that whilst Turn 3 on Sunday was bizarre and embarassing for Ferrari and the drivers I doubt we need to delve too deeply into analysimg any driver calibre problems.

Leclerc blotted his copybook with a rash move that happened to nail his outgoing teammate but the guy finished second in that thing the week before! These things happen.

Next year is a fresh start in any case?
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Old 16 Jul 2020, 21:54 (Ref:3988829)   #439
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More bad news for the Scuderia?
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Old 16 Jul 2020, 22:59 (Ref:3988840)   #440
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Old 17 Jul 2020, 06:36 (Ref:3988868)   #441
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, well certainly made me laugh
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Old 17 Jul 2020, 06:38 (Ref:3988869)   #442
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More bad news for the Scuderia?

Defence: "Why would we copy that!"

Prosecution: "The results speak for themselves!"
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Old 17 Jul 2020, 07:18 (Ref:3988877)   #443
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More bad news for the Scuderia?
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Old 17 Jul 2020, 08:59 (Ref:3988901)   #444
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But which engine suits the chassis better, Ferrari or Merc?
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Old 17 Jul 2020, 16:01 (Ref:3989057)   #445
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The Ferrari engine seems equally bad in any chassis whilst the mercs engine seems to performs very well in some shassis
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Old 17 Jul 2020, 16:05 (Ref:3989059)   #446
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The Ferrari engine seems equally bad in any chassis whilst the mercs engine seems to performs very well in some shassis
The Merc engine certainly works well in either black or pink chassis.
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Old 18 Jul 2020, 10:55 (Ref:3989205)   #447
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More bad news for the Scuderia?
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Old 19 Jul 2020, 16:17 (Ref:3989550)   #448
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steve nielsen should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Ferrari now P5 in the WCC behind McLaren and the pink Mercedes team
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Old 19 Jul 2020, 17:20 (Ref:3989558)   #449
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Vettel outperformed the car to an extent today. Maybe just more experience than Chuck has in tricky conditions.
Leclerc still pretty calm afterwards considering how he got hammered by lots of drivers and cats he would expect to be way ahead of.
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Old 19 Jul 2020, 17:36 (Ref:3989562)   #450
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Poor old Charles was given a suicide strategy to be fair to him.
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