Level of interest/boringness of past seasons

[Greem]

I've long felt that refuelling in races is a double-edged sword, and the edge that was exposed in the previous era was the one driven by the need for fraction-of-a-second differences. The rigs were complex, the hoses heavy, and the fill rate just silly - ISTR is was 12 litres/sec.

Make the fuel cell small enough that cars have to refuel, and pull the flow rate down to (say) 1 or 2 litres/sec. We'll then see cars running proper fuel saving strategies - slipstreaming for example - ready to turn up the wick at the end. The driver with the gentlest right foot will win.

Alternatively, make the fuel cell whatever size it has to be but only give each team a fixed fuel quantity at each event, calculated on a set number of high-speed laps in practice & qualifying (looking at previous years' data). Those who sacrifice setup time in practice keep fuel for the race but might not be as prepared; those who run long practice sessions then might only just have enough fuel for the race.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Greem

I've long felt that refuelling in races is a double-edged sword, and the edge that was exposed in the previous era was the one driven by the need for fraction-of-a-second differences. The rigs were complex, the hoses heavy, and the fill rate just silly - ISTR is was 12 litres/sec.

Make the fuel cell small enough that cars have to refuel, and pull the flow rate down to (say) 1 or 2 litres/sec. We'll then see cars running proper fuel saving strategies - slipstreaming for example - ready to turn up the wick at the end. The driver with the gentlest right foot will win.

Alternatively, make the fuel cell whatever size it has to be but only give each team a fixed fuel quantity at each event, calculated on a set number of high-speed laps in practice & qualifying (looking at previous years' data). Those who sacrifice setup time in practice keep fuel for the race but might not be as prepared; those who run long practice sessions then might only just have enough fuel for the race.

I may have this wrong but when F1 initially adopted refueling, wasn't there an issue was no standard sized fuel tank?

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by Greem

Make the fuel cell small enough that cars have to refuel, and pull the flow rate down to (say) 1 or 2 litres/sec. We'll then see cars running proper fuel saving strategies - slipstreaming for example - ready to turn up the wick at the end. The driver with the gentlest right foot will win.

So then we'd see drivers going as slowly as possible and preferring to stay behind rather than overtake. Doesn't sound like an improvement.

[S griffin]

I’m with you Green, that’s the only way I can accept having refuelling back. Putting the refuelling flow rate up would not necessarily make it advantage to run lighter and it could be like when Brabham first introduced refuelling, nice tortoise and hare race.

Also if a driver is in danger of running out during the end he can have a splash and dash, instead of having to fuel save

[Adam43]

Anything that makes it more like a game of chess. Perfect.

[Anyopenroad]

The logic of "if we do X then the teams will have to do A and B and the result will be Z" is exactly the logic that was used to justify all the rules that are now being blamed for the races being dull.

[S griffin]

It was the only way refuelling could be justified in my book, if you make it so it’s not necessarily essential and that pitting for fuel can leave you exposed. That’s the idea by putting the refuelling flow rate up if it does come back. But only if we get rid of the two compound per race rule

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

The logic of "if we do X then the teams will have to do A and B and the result will be Z" is exactly the logic that was used to justify all the rules that are now being blamed for the races being dull.

Shame they didn’t listen to the fans. They said do C,D,E,F and G. This would have resulted in Y. It’s a bit like Z, but worse.

[wolfhound]

When you put the fast guys at the front of the grid you won't have very interesting races.

If however the faster car driver combinations are at the back of the field then you should have a lot more on track action.
I wonder how the original idea of the starting grid came about as in the fastest drivers at the front. Could it have come from the need to avoid overtakes on narrow public roads that motor racing started on?

[hoffman66]

I think modern F1 has sadly disappeared up its own bloated backside for far too long

Utterly petulant and cossetted drivers that have little or no personality, and we are supposed to think Kimi has one because he is rude and uncommunicative despite being there for 15 years, sorry that is not a personality and if you think it is you a re either wrong or too young to remember real personality.

Cars that look ridiculous, wages and staff levels that are borderline offensive in the modern world and rules and laws that make a lot of faunas just wince with endless *****ing and moaning about track limits, moving one way, leaving a pit early, etc etc, I know safety is paramount but you can out safety a sport and that is what has happened.

Couple that with a pathetic, greedy tv strategy that in the UK puts a huge majority of fans behind a paywall for a sport loaded with multi billion sponsors and manufacturers and it is no shock fans look elsewhere.

I started drifting away 15 years ago and have never really looked back.

It

[Greem]

Originally Posted by hoffman66

I think modern F1 has sadly disappeared up its own bloated backside for far too long



Utterly petulant and cossetted drivers that have little or no personality, and we are supposed to think Kimi has one because he is rude and uncommunicative despite being there for 15 years, sorry that is not a personality and if you think it is you a re either wrong or too young to remember real personality.



Cars that look ridiculous, wages and staff levels that are borderline offensive in the modern world and rules and laws that make a lot of faunas just wince with endless *****ing and moaning about track limits, moving one way, leaving a pit early, etc etc, I know safety is paramount but you can out safety a sport and that is what has happened.



Couple that with a pathetic, greedy tv strategy that in the UK puts a huge majority of fans behind a paywall for a sport loaded with multi billion sponsors and manufacturers and it is no shock fans look elsewhere.



I started drifting away 15 years ago and have never really looked back.



It

Why not tell us what you *really* feel?

[Anyopenroad]

Another example of how the "change X so the teams have to do Y and the racing improves" logic doesn't work out:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/15...cedes-in-races

Suggestion from Toto that not having to run "party mode" in qualifying preserves engine life, allowing greater race performance. Thus, Merc's advantage may well be increased, not decreased.

[S griffin]

Didn’t really think that one through, just shows quick fix solutions don’t really work

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

Horner's comments in that article are revealing. Refueling is one of several things suggested as a way to mix up strategies. But what happens is that everyone runs the alternatives through the simulator and one optimum strategy emerges.

but surely this suggests that more tweaks made more frequently are needed since the more time the teams are given with a specific rule set the better able they will be to optimize their outcomes?

dominance is an interesting concept in F1 given that most recent periods of dominance were preceded rules tweaks/changes. Merc's current success is tied to an engine formula that they had a head start in developing.

i suppose i would argue with the assertion that they just built a better car is incomplete as not encompassing the complex relationship that money and politics have in F1....but overall, i agree with you that Merc should be credited for this period of dominance. it should still be celebrated.

so i suppose the question needs to be, just how long should Merc be able to hold this advantage and enjoy their dominance before the rules are changed again?

F1/motorsports is different to other sports in that the unique and bespoke nature of the cars is a big part of the appeal imo. if rules dont change then the cars will never change either.

im not saying refueling (although i do think it would be fun ) is the answer but rather just making the case for a continuing evolution of the rules.

honestly, my ideal solutions are more aimed at limiting the budgets and seeing what the most creative teams can do within that space so i am looking forward to F1's phase.

also ready to complain about the unintended consequences which will inevitably show up.

[S griffin]

It would be fun to keep moving the goalposts technically, although cost might be a factor against it

[Adam43]

I’m so for that. Change the tech regs every year or two. Announce it around September each year.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I’m so for that. Change the tech regs every year or two. Announce it around September each year.

Does not seem to work too well in practice though:


Change RBR domination
Change Brawn domination
Change Mercedes domination

[wnut]

Originally Posted by S griffin

It would be fun to keep moving the goalposts technically, although cost might be a factor against it

The good thing about constantly moving the goal posts is that it prevents someone spending billions on polishing a solution.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by wnut

The good thing about constantly moving the goal posts is that it prevents someone spending billions on polishing a solution.

So they have to spend billions constantly redesigning, retooling and rebuilding instead?

[S griffin]

Which is why they have understandably delayed the new rules to 2022

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Which is why they have understandably delayed the new rules to 2022

They delayed the new rules because of the pandemic.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by wnut

Does not seem to work too well in practice though:


Change RBR domination
Change Brawn domination
Change Mercedes domination

If you change the rules frequently, then the domination doesn't last long. Based upon your data, if we had changed every two years, then since 2014 we might have had at least three different teams leading at the front instead of just one.

Not that I think changing the regulations every two years is a good idea.

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

So they have to spend billions constantly redesigning, retooling and rebuilding instead?

Not if you have cost caps. But the point is valid about constant churn of the design teams. Nobody would be a fan of it.

Originally Posted by S griffin

Which is why they have understandably delayed the new rules to 2022

I understand why this was done (primarily due to Pandemic), but I think in the long run it was a bad idea. It just prolongs the bleeding from the current open wound. If you know you will have surgery, why push back the schedule until you are weaker?

Richard

PS: I have no idea what this thread is about.

[S griffin]

It’s annoying to have the new rules delayed, as I was looking forward to seeing the new cars hopefully produce better racing, but with the way the economy is, I understand the need for a freeze to keep things stable

[Paradise City]

I do find myself enjoying most of the races. You need to not care so much about the world championship to do this. And unless it's real breakneck stuff like Hill versus Schumacher, Prost versus Senna, the world championship is just an afterthought to the on-track race action for me -- even if it's only for the podium and mid field placings. I just wanna watch fast cars duking it on the race track without having any other deeper considerations.

[S griffin]

I do think the racing needs to be better more than anything and then the championship will be an afterthought, even if it would be better if Lewis had a closer challenger