[Official] Tuscan Grand Prix 2020: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 9

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

For the second week running we had a red flag due to barrier damage. Back in the day this very rarely happened if at all. It does make you wonder why it’s the case now, although obviously safety becoming even more important as time goes has something to do with it. Maybe tyre walls have had their day?

Anyway it was good to race on Mugello, a proper old school circuit where mistakes were punished and where track limits weren’t mentioned once AFAIK, which makes a nice change.

I think the two points here are connected.

With Mugello being 'proper old school' (does that just mean old?), the circuit design and construction will have been made without concern for run-off areas. The result of this is that cars are travelling faster in close proximity to the barriers, and so any time the driver leaves the circuit there is a greater chance that the barrier will be struck causing damage. On a track where there is a greater run-off, the drivers are willing to take risks with less fear of consequence.

Ultimately, it can be seen in a similar vein to a risk assessment. The higher the speed when in close proximity to barriers means the damage will be higher. The closer the proximity to barriers when at speed means the likelihood of impact is higher.

Speed x Proximity = likelihood of barrier damage needing repair.

Move the barriers further back or reduce the speed, and there is less chance of a red flag.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by gert

Agree, I think the rule makers are as much to blame as the 12 drivers.
I think the FIA should think of a better way of doing this.

Don't we rail against the ongoing increasing complexity of the sport? Should they enact speed limiter that neuter the car until it crosses the timing loop at the start/finish? Use ultrasonic sensors to enforce strict distancing between the cars as they approach the start/finish line? Add another 5-10Kg of maximum weight to the cars to allow for the extra sensors, etc.

I think the problem is that this type of start is not particularly common so drivers are not particularly experienced with the nuances of how to do this. On top of this the track configuration aggravated things. It is highly likely that history will show that this was a relatively rare event.

These are supposedly the top drivers in the world! Bottas did what he should have done (and frankly he had the easiest thing to do which is to only worry about those behind him). Those further back really needed a bit of cooperation between those behind and in front of each car. This requires both some experience (and with that experience is awareness of how this does and doesn't work). But they were pushing the envelope as to what they could do (speed up, slow down, speed up, slow down, but don't pass!) and it bit them hard. Lastly Botta could have even driven differently (faster or more constant speed) and that still wouldn't have guaranteed the rear of the field wouldn't have screwed it all up!

Richard

[Greem]

2x2 restarts with a sponsored 'restart zone'. Simple.

What do you mean, they do that in NASCAR?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Greem

2x2 restarts with a sponsored 'restart zone'. Simple.

What do you mean, they do that in NASCAR?

A 2x2 standing restart, or rolling restart?

[Greem]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

A 2x2 standing restart, or rolling restart?

Rolling, after a SC/FCY.

They can already get standing starts mostly right - they did 3 yesterday, which was just showing off.

[steve_r]

Or just let the pace car leave the track about half a lap before the start / finish line, and then the lead driver can string the cars out well before start/finish.

[Peter Mallett]

Wouldn't make any difference since the reason for the slow lappery was because of the long straight to the first corner and the possibility of being overtaken due to the draft. Hence Bottas left his run as late as possible and it worked.

[Akrapovic]

Or just leave it as it is and tell the best drivers in the world to start being at least as competent as GTE-Am Drivers in ELMS.

Just a thought.

[Peter Mallett]

Indeed.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Or just leave it as it is and tell the best drivers in the world to start being at least as competent as GTE-Am Drivers in ELMS.

Just a thought.

Serious question. I know teams use simulators to evaluate and practice things. I can imagine drivers using simulators to build muscle memory for things like start procedures, start light reaction time training, clutch release, etc. Why do they not have them practice things like these?

Richard

[bjohnsonsmith]

I agree leave things as they are, it's not like there is an issue everytime there is a restart behind the SC. There were two restarts at Mid-Ohio yesterday, both incident free. I'm not too sure about double file restarts. IndyCar reintroduced them for the 2011 season, on all tracks but they proved very problematic. They where eventually dropped from road/street courses and the 500 in 2014 and now they don't use them at all.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Serious question. I know teams use simulators to evaluate and practice things. I can imagine drivers using simulators to build muscle memory for things like start procedures, start light reaction time training, clutch release, etc. Why do they not have them practice things like these?

Richard

I imagine they do, but the way it happened is that 1 driver got it wrong, and everyone else reacted to them. So I guess they did follow their practicing? Maybe?

I _think_ what happened was Kvyat went too early, which then caused everyone else. Since you can only react to the car in front (you can't see further than that) you have to trust that they did the right thing.

But certainly cars around Kvyat and Russell, relatively far up the field, caused the incident. Cars like Latifi, Gio and Sainz can only react to the cars in front and accelerated.

However, I do feel like a lot of cars were hanging back too far. Kimi and Vettel were a good 100m or so back. That's absolutely not ok.

[S griffin]

With hindsight Kimi and Seb did the right thing, maybe that’s a sign of their experience. Holding back in case something goes wrong as it did there

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I _think_ what happened was Kvyat went too early, which then caused everyone else. Since you can only react to the car in front (you can't see further than that) you have to trust that they did the right thing.

There needs to be some level of trust, but they also have to give up something to allow for contingencies in a relatively risky situation. Such as maybe don't try to accelerate while directly in the draft (limiting your vision to just one car in front of you). Pull out a bit to watch a few cars ahead, even if that might compromise you a bit. You still can't pass prior to the start finish.

As to the simulation training. I expect a good simulator would include variable levels of "bad" behavior of the other drivers. If you have the simulator setup so that everyone else does the "right" thing nothing bad will happen. It's best to have the field accordion in front of you to teach you to develop strategies to both watch for it and learn to deal with it when it happens.

Richard

[Greem]

Just for the record: I was not being serious about double-file restarts and acceleration zones.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Or just leave it as it is and tell the best drivers in the world to start being at least as competent as GTE-Am Drivers in ELMS.

Just a thought.

Or your average club racer!

[sizzle]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Or just leave it as it is and tell the best drivers in the world to start being at least as competent as GTE-Am Drivers in ELMS.

Just a thought.

Or just like the kids in F3!

[Lola]

Restart like they do in IMSA or Indy. Not even the leader goes before the green flag is shown

[bella]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I imagine they do, but the way it happened is that 1 driver got it wrong, and everyone else reacted to them. So I guess they did follow their practicing? Maybe?

I _think_ what happened was Kvyat went too early, which then caused everyone else. Since you can only react to the car in front (you can't see further than that) you have to trust that they did the right thing.

But certainly cars around Kvyat and Russell, relatively far up the field, caused the incident. Cars like Latifi, Gio and Sainz can only react to the cars in front and accelerated.

However, I do feel like a lot of cars were hanging back too far. Kimi and Vettel were a good 100m or so back. That's absolutely not ok.

similarly to what you suggested earlier in the thread, radio 5/the bbc website were determined that it was russell who went first. which really just shows how hard it is to place blame, and they were ultimately correct to read half the field the riot act rather than specifically have a go at one or two drivers. going at that particular point was probably a lot closer to a non-baku restart, so it's not that far fetched. unfortunately the further back you get in the field, the faster they're going to turn up at the scene of the accident assuming everyone else is leaving a similar gap between cars.

the same thing happens in a road accident on a busy road - one person has to react at the last minute because they weren't paying attention or were unsighted, which cascades backwards getting closer and closer to the point where somebody can't react in time and goes into the back of someone else. then all hell breaks loose until there's a big enough gap to break the chain.

but it goes without saying that they shouldn't need specific rules for restarts. they're all grown ups, not 12 year olds in karts.

[PVDA]

I reckon a partial cause of the pile up was drivers weaving right up until the crashing started.

Here in Australia Supercars banned weaving after the Safety Car goes lights out after some restart incidents a few years ago which has filtered down to the lower classes, as a result and we haven't seen any major problems until they get to a corner since.

https://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=155504


As it was occurring in all the classes over the weekend I've created a separate thread to discuss further.

[JacobP]

Why was this race allowed to run for so long? Wasn't there a new rule (introduced after the extra-long 2011 Canadian GP) that said F1 race must end two hours after the start? This is a joke. F1 eats its own rules.

[GT6]

F1 will always be flexible with rules to suit itself

[bjohnsonsmith]

If they had gone with the two hour rule, would there have been time left for any actual racing?

[greentrumpet]

It was the Ferrari grand prix, no time limit and 4l engines.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by JacobP

Why was this race allowed to run for so long? Wasn't there a new rule (introduced after the extra-long 2011 Canadian GP) that said F1 race must end two hours after the start? This is a joke. F1 eats its own rules.

That rule exists EXCEPT when the race is halted by a red flag or flags - when that is the case, the time limit is 4 hours.

F1 didn't eat its own rules.