Honda Withdrawl from F1

[gert]

Originally Posted by steve nielsen

With Stefano Domenicali beeing the new F1 CEO:
how about Red Bull-Lamborghini ?

One has nothing to do with the other.

I doubt VAG group has an engine ready or are willing to commit to making one for 2022.
It has been rumoured a few times the last few years (once it was clled a Porsche, next time an Audi, they can also call it Lamborghini or Bentley or whatever if they want) but nothing came of it. I highly doubt they will be interested now.

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Renault must be laughing now.

Either Red Bull and Torros Rosso find another manufacturer and Renault won't really care as they seem to want to concebtrate on their own team for now.
Either Red Bull or Torro Rosso or both come(s) begging for an engine

Both options are fine for Renault I think.

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

With this announcement, does this therefore mean that Yuki Tsunoda isn't as certain to be in F1 for either 2021/22? If he can make the jump to AlphaTauri for 2021 I'd expect he would still do so, but from then on what of his Honda backing? This does have some implications for the Red Bull junior programme.

[chillibowl]

I suppose i am a bit more worried about RB pulling out one or both teams.

With the Williams sale, the 200m entry for new teams, budget cap plus better access to prize money...maybe this is a time to sell out/buy an existing team?

Not so much worried about lack of engines. In fairness, 4 not fully electric engines was already superfluous and antiquated.

The FE path is an interesting one depending on how much it would cost to transfer over the rights.

Provided they dont go backwards with technology imo, this may be a good thing for F1.

This sport just keeps on giving. I love it!

[gert]

Originally Posted by Biscuits In A Red Bull

With this announcement, does this therefore mean that Yuki Tsunoda isn't as certain to be in F1 for either 2021/22? If he can make the jump to AlphaTauri for 2021 I'd expect he would still do so, but from then on what of his Honda backing? This does have some implications for the Red Bull junior programme.

Good question.
He is both Red Bull and Honda junior, right? I guess Red Bull may still want thim if they think he is good enough for 1 of their teams.
But probably the Honda money and support will be gone, so if Red Bull don't rate him higher than what they have now or what they have down the pipe line they nmay decide to skip him
And wait for Vips or the next one in line?

[Born Racer]

Red Bull always seemed to be strangely scathingly critical of Renault. Did they warrant such public criticism?

[S griffin]

Red Bull and Alpha Tauri have said they will continue after 2021. We’ll take their word for it, but it will be tough finding a new engine supplier.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Red Bull and Alpha Tauri have said they will continue after 2021. We’ll take their word for it, but it will be tough finding a new engine supplier.

Id guess that Honda had already explained their plans to RB well before the announcement today. Maybe they've already got a plan in place, which could be one of 3 options: They've managed to persuade one of the remaining manufacturers to supply them (both teams). That they've been courting a new manufacturer (VAG?) who will take over after the Honda pull-out. Or that Honda will give them the rights to the engine and they'll either setup an operation to build/rebuild them themselves or they'll pay someone (like Mugen?) to do it for them.

[steve_r]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

Id guess that Honda had already explained their plans to RB well before the announcement today. Maybe they've already got a plan in place, which could be one of 3 options: They've managed to persuade one of the remaining manufacturers to supply them (both teams). That they've been courting a new manufacturer (VAG?) who will take over after the Honda pull-out. Or that Honda will give them the rights to the engine and they'll either setup an operation to build/rebuild them themselves or they'll pay someone (like Mugen?) to do it for them.

The VAG rumour I think ought to be discounted for various reasons - including the fact that this idea keeps cropping up for 20 years or more, but has never been a serious possibility.

I cant see Mercedes pairing up with Red Bull, but maybe Renault?

The Mugen Honda / own branding option seems possible.

[Knowlesy]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

Id guess that Honda had already explained their plans to RB well before the announcement today. Maybe they've already got a plan in place, which could be one of 3 options: They've managed to persuade one of the remaining manufacturers to supply them (both teams). That they've been courting a new manufacturer (VAG?) who will take over after the Honda pull-out. Or that Honda will give them the rights to the engine and they'll either setup an operation to build/rebuild them themselves or they'll pay someone (like Mugen?) to do it for them.

Red Bull will definitely have something lined up. The Honda announcement, though something of a surprise to see this morning as a headline, had really been on the cards for a while as it was suspected they wouldn't carry on beyond 2021 even last year. It isn't like the global conditions got any better since then.

[Moneyseeker]

As the engine regs are stable for the coming years - would make sense for Red Bull to buy the engine project from Honda - bring in a Cosworth or Illen to develop and run it. Would give them control, would enable them to try and get on par/or an advantage over their rivals.

What is an F1 engine project, it is about money - if you have the fundng you can recruit the best people, develop the best product. Red Bull has plenty of money, it would safeguard it's F1 future.

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

Its going to be interesting to see what engines the Red Bull teams end up with.


It will have to be one of the existing maufacturers as there is not time for a new one to come in and develop a new power unit.



I suspect we might see RB with one and Alpha Tauri wiyh another.

Mercedes will be supplying power units to 4 teams next season so they are unlikely to have the capacity to supply 2 more.

Renault and RB did not get on well in recent years despite winning 4 championships together.

Ferrari are in a weak position at the moment and already have 3 teams to supply and probably don't want a high profile team like RB giving them more hassle.


I suspect we could see Renault supplying Alpha Tauri as it would be lower profile and without all the drama that goes with RB. It would give Renault an extra load of data to work from.
Where RB goes is another question, a Fiat badged Ferrari perhaps.

How about Mercs as follows. Merc as Merc. Aston Martin as Aston Martin and RB as SMART - Williams Renault

[AnnoyedMoose]

The VAG idea died when F1 switched from the proposed 4 cylinder world engines.

F1 needs to ditch all the restrictions on the recovery/deployment of the electric side of the engine or ditch that part of the PU entirely and go all in on ICE allowing for fully camless engines etc.

This halfway house of not having the best of either technology just seems really counter productive to me.

[chillibowl]

No doubt they have had time and maybe already have something lined up...but it wont be a defacto bespoke solution. Not under the current formula at least.

I suppose there might be hope if Merc sell, but the chances of winning with a customer Merc or Ferrari engine supply, from a historical perspective at least, is slim to none.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

As the engine regs are stable for the coming years - would make sense for Red Bull to buy the engine project from Honda - bring in a Cosworth or Illen to develop and run it. Would give them control, would enable them to try and get on par/or an advantage over their rivals.

What is an F1 engine project, it is about money - if you have the fundng you can recruit the best people, develop the best product. Red Bull has plenty of money, it would safeguard it's F1 future.

Thats an interesting suggestion.

[billy bleach]

[QUOTE=Moneyseeker;4007932]This is why TOCA have done such a good job with the BTCC, it still has the 'glamour' of some 'works' entries, but they are not allowed to dominate a well built, run and driven TOCA engined car car win races or as may be the case this year, the championship. Yes, we know that performance balancing and other elements help this. Now there will be a TOCA Hybrid power unit to keep the BTCC topical.

Not so much this year. How many TOCA motors have failed trying to keep up?

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by AnnoyedMoose

The VAG idea died when F1 switched from the proposed 4 cylinder world engines.

F1 needs to ditch all the restrictions on the recovery/deployment of the electric side of the engine or ditch that part of the PU entirely and go all in on ICE allowing for fully camless engines etc.

This halfway house of not having the best of either technology just seems really counter productive to me.

Not so, they are strongly alleged (through Porsche motorsports R&D dept) to have designed and built an F1 engine as recently as 2018...

I think that if RB were aware of Honda pulling out well in advance, they will already be well down the road of sorting the solution.

Likeliest is a a deal having been done with Honda to take over the project, have an existing engine prep firm (Mugen, Illien or An Other) to build/develop them with RB's and another sponsors money.

I cannot see Renault or Merc being possible, and Ferrari only slightly more so.

EDIT as I see chillibowl has just said!

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

Red Bull always seemed to be strangely scathingly critical of Renault. Did they warrant such public criticism?

When RB were paying Renault a shed load of money it was reasonable to expect a promised performance from that motor as well as spares support of new parts and not cobbled together used spares. Palms will be greased and deals done and this will be sorted out and smiles wil be on everyone's faces for the press conference that will happen announcing a PU supply deal with one of the existing suppliers. To presume it is Renault is putting the cart before the horse but they do seem the obvious choice.

No one can tell me that RB along with other interested parties was not aware of Honda's exit plans months ago. As for a spec motor Ferrari will go nuts if it is even suggested and the proposal will disappear never to see the light again even if it does have merit. At the end of the day the same number of teams are on the grid that were there when Honda arrived and they are still there with the same number of PU suppliers so things will be made to work.

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Not so, they are strongly alleged (through Porsche motorsports R&D dept) to have designed and built an F1 engine as recently as 2018...

I think that if RB were aware of Honda pulling out well in advance, they will already be well down the road of sorting the solution.

Likeliest is a a deal having been done with Honda to take over the project, have an existing engine prep firm (Mugen, Illien or An Other) to build/develop them with RB's and another sponsors money.

I cannot see Renault or Merc being possible, and Ferrari only slightly more so.

EDIT as I see chillibowl has just said!

Sounds like quite a sudden Honda board decision to me, probably the people that RBR deal with at Honda day to day had no idea either. I doubt RBR had that much advance warning.

Remember BE's words when talking about manufacturers - he always said you were only ever a board meeting away from them making the decison to pull out, regardless of what bits of paper are signed. I give you exhibit A - Toyota in that regard...

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

As the engine regs are stable for the coming years - would make sense for Red Bull to buy the engine project from Honda - bring in a Cosworth or Illen to develop and run it. Would give them control, would enable them to try and get on par/or an advantage over their rivals.

What is an F1 engine project, it is about money - if you have the fundng you can recruit the best people, develop the best product. Red Bull has plenty of money, it would safeguard it's F1 future.

The PU is so complex the idea of Illen or a similar company being involved is not feasible. Honda are pulling out for just that reason so for an external supplier to make a go of it the motor will have to be be far simpler than at present.

VW are rumoured to be planning the sale of Lamborghini, Bugatti & Ducatti and are also rumoured along with every other manufacturer to be bleeding cash due to the need to develop electric cars which they have just begun to bring to market and yet to see any ROI on so any suggestion they might get involved seems unlikely. F1 has driven itself up a cul de sac because they allowed the PU suppliers to dictate what they wanted and funnily enough the chief dictator was Renault closely followed by Ferrari.

[AnnoyedMoose]

Originally Posted by Casper

F1 has driven itself up a cul de sac because they allowed the PU suppliers to dictate what they wanted and funnily enough the chief dictator was Renault closely followed by Ferrari.

I thought Renault was aligned with VAG in wanting the 4 cylinder world engine and it was Ferrari and Mercedes who pushed for the V6 with all the bells and whistles? In fact I'm sure I remember Renault was totally opposed to the engines we have now and only agreed in the interest of the sport.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by AnnoyedMoose

I thought Renault was aligned with VAG in wanting the 4 cylinder world engine and it was Ferrari and Mercedes who pushed for the V6 with all the bells and whistles? In fact I'm sure I remember Renault was totally opposed to the engines we have now and only agreed in the interest of the sport.

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by Casper

The PU is so complex the idea of Illen or a similar company being involved is not feasible. Honda are pulling out for just that reason so for an external supplier to make a go of it the motor will have to be be far simpler than at present.

VW are rumoured to be planning the sale of Lamborghini, Bugatti & Ducatti and are also rumoured along with every other manufacturer to be bleeding cash due to the need to develop electric cars which they have just begun to bring to market and yet to see any ROI on so any suggestion they might get involved seems unlikely. F1 has driven itself up a cul de sac because they allowed the PU suppliers to dictate what they wanted and funnily enough the chief dictator was Renault closely followed by Ferrari.

With money you can recruit whoever you want to develop the engine for you. If RBR went shopping at Brixworth with a large enough cheque?

What are their options?

Ferrari - already commited to 3 teams and the engine is now poor
Mercedes - will they supply Red Bull and already commited to customers
Renault - lot of crawling and back sliding required by CH to be a customer again - but they have the capacity and clearly want engine partners.
Honda- buy the project and recruit the right people to manage it - Honda has already done the hardest and most expensive part surely?

I completely agree F1 has backed itself into a corner on an over complicated PU, that only attracted one new manufacturer who is now leaving.

Probably the actual answer for the long terms is to tear up the regs and make the PU simpler

[chillibowl]

i agree that with money, one could hire those now left out of a job or those who dont want to be reallocated within Honda or those simply wishing to continue on with the work they have been doing for these past years. perhaps even Honda would consider loaning out that staff for the short term to keep the project going but as a subsidized cost and a little more outside of media attention.

we might even see some of that staff naturally migrate over to other F1 engine makers.

Illien or Cosworth or whomever taking over would not preclude people moving between jobs/companies.

so that part i agree with.

i dont agree with f1 having backed itself into a corner.

they still have 3 major manu backed engine manus left which still makes this one of the most stable engine periods in F1 history no?

[Moneyseeker]

https://the-race.com/formula-1/honda...ck-to-renault/

Good piece above and reminds us that the FIA could 'make' Renault supply RBR under the regs that mean no team can be left without an engine supply...

Perhaps the ideal solution is for Renault to supply Nissan branded engines to RBR, which keeps the toxic RBR-Renault past out of the limelight and opens up Nissan marketing opportunities with Red Bull and Verstappen?

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

Good piece above and reminds us that the FIA could 'make' Renault supply RBR under the regs that mean no team can be left without an engine supply...

the classic but never used 'Webber to Renault' clause!

and no doubt Renault would love to badge every brand they own in F1 all at the same time...no one will ever know just how poor of a job Cyril is doing then!