Sir Lewis Hamilton is the GOAT

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I think he needs to beat Schumi's 7 WDCs to be the GOAT and that is doable.

Easily....

[Badlands99]

Greatest of All Time means too many things .......

Is he the best that we have seen for a while? - YES, definitely.

Has he had the best car? - by a very long way.
And are there others who could do just as good a job in that car? Undoubtedly!

Rosberg was close at times, but Lewis has been just so consistant over the years that he has been racing and he has one quality that many very, very good drivers don't have - the ability to never give up when things are not quite right. Just take the Imola race - not the best start, passed by Max as well, but just bided his time and then told the team (not asked the team), 'I am going for this and don't try to stop me'! This is the sort of thing that separates the really good drivers from the very best.

The drivers from the time that I have been watching F1 - 1975 to the present day that always embodied this spirit - Hunt, Villeneuve, Lauda, Mansell, Senna, Schumacher, and now Max and Lewis.

Yes, there have been many other drivers that were brilliant in their time but there are just a few that you would pay a lot of money to go and see.
These are the best of the best and all of us will have different ideas of who should be on that list but each one will have that little bit of extra brilliance up their sleeves.

An example ..... I remember in Mansell's Championship winning year, standing at Woodcote on the first lap, he appeared out of Bridge and there was what appeared to be an incredibly long wait for anybody else to arrive - I believe it was +2 seconds but seemed like no-one else was left in the race! These are the memories that we all have about different drivers that elevate them above the really good drivers and make them 'the Best' and Lewis is definitely up there!

[S griffin]

There are plenty of candidates for G.O.A.T.

No doubt Hamilton has got better, even if he has been helped by having the best car. He’s been lucky in respect, as is the fact Valterri hasn’t been pushing him as much he should. But if he leaves, whoever replaces him can do just as good job, if not better. Although they would still need a top driver in their car

He may not have the best of competition at times, but he does a solid job 9 times out of ten. It’s a shame he couldn’t pass Max on track, you never know if he could or not, but he does well to get in that position. Just need more competition at front now

I wouldn’t put him as the most exciting driver ever, but you can’t deny he gets results. Who knows if he’s really the best driver on the grid. I would be eager to put drivers from past above him, but he’s definitely more complete drivers like Hunt and Villeneuve. Although natural talent plays a part. It’s hard to compare him to Schumi, although both are great team players who helped teams get up there. And there are some like Alesi who missed out on more wins because they never got the breaks or the rub of the green. Now there is a wasted talent. Unlike Senna who made the most of he had and really took on Prost, who I’d say was no doubt the greatest of his era

We’ll see what happens next season, how different will it be if Lewis is not in the Silver car? Maybe they will find someone just as good as him. Now where’s Jenson when you need him...

For me Lewis always has been there or thereabouts. However there are some like Leclerc and Raikkonen who really take the car by the scruff of their neck. And there are some like Mansell who make the most of their chances. Mansell was so fired up in 92 he could have won the championship in the Ferrari! The others had no chance. Helped by no Prost, but Mansell was a great driver and got results

Overall we can argue till we’re blue in the face about who’s the greatest. At the end of the day there are plenty of great drivers who have their own style and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn’t

[Akrapovic]

Can we just point out, whilst Lewis had the best car, he's also raced drivers who could challenge him (with exceptions, obviously). He partnered with Alonso, Button and Rosberg. 3 title winners. Schumacher had Herbert, Irvine and Barrichello? Not quite the same level is it.

[S griffin]

Yes, he has been lucky to get the best car. And how good are the drivers he’s raced against? Button was/is one of the best, Alonso good, but prone to emotional incidents and Rosberg probably pushed him as hard as he could and he got the title out of hard work

Schumi never really did it for me. Herbert should have done better, but never got the chance, Irvine I’ve always felt did better than it appeared and Barrichello was good but nothing special. For me I would say Lewis and Michael are close in terms of talent, but Lewis made better use of what he had

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Can we just point out, whilst Lewis had the best car, he's also raced drivers who could challenge him (with exceptions, obviously). He partnered with Alonso, Button and Rosberg. 3 title winners. Schumacher had Herbert, Irvine and Barrichello? Not quite the same level is it.

We all know what happened to Barrichello at Austria in 2002. I'm not suggesting Schumacher was given preferential treatment over his team mates but Austria 2002 I think raises that question.

[ascarracinguk]

It always makes me smile when people bring up competition etc.

People class Schumacher or fangio as the greatest and yet they had the best car, with subservient number 2 teammates, yet when Lewis has the best car and 3 world champions as his teammates, it is somehow classed as less of a challenge by the masses?!

There was a great video done about a year ago (il find it again eventually) comparing the speed advantage of the 2019 Mercedes and winning cars like the FW14B, early 90s Mclaren and it found the time advantage and dominance of those cars was FAR in excessive of the current Mercedes.

The biggest difference of course is reliability. While those cars had massive speed, their advantage was somewhat masked by their reliability so of course unpredictable results spiced up the racing.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

We all know what happened to Barrichello at Austria in 2002. I'm not suggesting Schumacher was given preferential treatment over his team mates but Austria 2002 I think raises that question.

Lol I think there’s quite a few examples, not just Austria....and not just 2002

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Shane Warne made what I think was a criticism of Monty Panesar whilst Panesar was playing in his 20th test. He made the comment that Panesar hadn't played in 20 Tests, he played the one Test 20 times. This was a good observation of Warne and similar definitely applies to a lot of motor racing records.

That's how I view Hamilton's MB, and Schumacher's Ferrari championships. Schumacher won 5 cships with Ferrari but it's the value of 2. 2000 & 2001-04. With Hamilton it's 2014-15 & 2017-20. Vettel's won 4, but it's more the equivalent of 2.

Compare it to someone like Nelson Piquet. wnut has dismissed Nelson Piquet who's won 3 cships, but I disagree with his opinion. . But it's 3 distinctly different cars and challenges. F1 was a more volatile competition in its first 50 years than it was for the last 20.

ascarracinguk has brought up some video saying the 14b was a a more dominant car. But there's a monumental difference between driving a dominant car for 1 year as opposed to 7. I shouldn't have to make the distinction as well.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

S
Compare it to someone like Nelson Piquet. wnut has dismissed Nelson Piquet who's won 3 cships, but I disagree with his opinion. . But it's 3 distinctly different cars and challenges. F1 was a more volatile competition in its first 50 years than it was for the last 20.
l.

I fear you are travelling under a misapprehension.

I did not dismiss Nelson at all, he was very very good. Someone else had ignored him as a Schumacher team mate.

Review the post, it was and the context.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

I thought you said he was lucky? I will read the post again later, but I'm watching State of Origin rugby league atm.

[Akrapovic]

Both Hamilton and Schumacher won in 2 cars. And then went to teams which were performing worse and were part of the core team that turned them into winners. As did Vettel with Red Bull.

You could argue Lewis first title in McLaren was because he joined a great team. Same with Kimi at Ferrari - already winning titles. But Lewis didn't join Mercedes as they were winning titles. He was part of that build up. As was Schumacher at Ferrari. Vettel at Red Bull. Even Hakkinen at late 90s McLaren. These sort of situations are completely discounted with that sort of maths.

[steve_r]

F1 is as much about getting yourself in the best car. as anything else. I read the word "lucky" many times on this page about Hamilton being in the best car, but I think that he deserves credit for his choice of teams.

Senna was not "lucky" with his choice of cars - he engineered himself into the championship winning McLaren when he could have just stayed in the race-winning Lotus. He engineered a move to Williams when it looked like the McLaren was not going to be the best car any more - and I have no doubt he would have delivered more titles with them if things had been different.

You could say the same about Prost, Lauda and some other great WDCs - they got themselves the drive in the best teams, when it might have been easier just to stay where they already were. It was not "luck". It is part of the process.

Senna did not sign multiple massive multi-year contracts with a team that was not going to deliver a title, unlike a certain other very highly regarded driver on the grid at the moment.

Hamilton can wait and wait and wait to negotiate a massive new lucrative contract with his current team, safe in the knowledge that other hotshots that would be a good replacement for him have tied themselves in long term with other teams already.

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

People class Schumacher or fangio as the greatest and yet they had the best car, with subservient number 2 teammates, yet when Lewis has the best car and 3 world champions as his teammates, it is somehow classed as less of a challenge by the masses?!

The key is that, Verstappen's brilliance aside, who else is there to challenge Hamilton but his teammate? Schumacher for many of his championship winning years (I count 1994, 1995, 2000, 2003) had rivals in other teams to deal with. For Hamilton this only really applies to 2008 and 2018, possibly 2019 too although that seemed to be more in qualifying than in races! Thus, the teammate is far more important when gauging Hamilton than for Schumacher.

[S griffin]

For me Michael never really had that much competition. Obviously you had Hakkinen and for a while Hill and Villeneuve to challenge him in the 90s, but he had it easy most times. He was usually in one of the best cars, the best car or a completely dominant car, with his team mate playing a support role. After Hakkinen retired his biggest threats came from the three Amigos, Raikkonen, Montoya and Alonso. But they had no chance against a completely dominant Ferrari in 04

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Biscuits In A Red Bull

The key is that, Verstappen's brilliance aside, who else is there to challenge Hamilton but his teammate? Schumacher for many of his championship winning years (I count 1994, 1995, 2000, 2003) had rivals in other teams to deal with. For Hamilton this only really applies to 2008 and 2018, possibly 2019 too although that seemed to be more in qualifying than in races! Thus, the teammate is far more important when gauging Hamilton than for Schumacher.

again, big difference being Hamilton has had competition from within.

Schumacher had a subservient teammate so had one less competitor by default, id actually argue that Hamilton has had a harder time because his teammates are competitive in identical equipment. One slip up and you're out of the title hunt.

Hamilton had tough battles against Alonso, Button, Rosberg from within his team and beat them all.

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

again, big difference being Hamilton has had competition from within.

Schumacher had a subservient teammate so had one less competitor by default, id actually argue that Hamilton has had a harder time because his teammates are competitive in identical equipment. One slip up and you're out of the title hunt.

Hamilton had tough battles against Alonso, Button, Rosberg from within his team and beat them all.

Narrowly beat, if at all in Button's case (Hamilton being outscored by Button over their 3 years together). Beating Alonso was incredible, especially as a rookie, but as for Button and Rosberg...? Hamilton did also have Kovalainen as a number 2 figure when he won the 2008 title.

[codename_47]

Originally Posted by Biscuits In A Red Bull

Narrowly beat, if at all in Button's case (Hamilton being outscored by Button over their 3 years together). Beating Alonso was incredible, especially as a rookie, but as for Button and Rosberg...? Hamilton did also have Kovalainen as a number 2 figure when he won the 2008 title.

No-one knew Heikki was going to underperform as he did in 2008 though
Expectations were he was the next big thing and he'd do what Lewis did to Alonso to Hamilton himself in 2008

I'm sure your point still stands about team-mate competittion but it wasn't a Prost/Schumacher style "I'll take the weaker guy as my team mate and veto the competittion" situation

Lewis' curse at the moment is he's still active and still alive, so people love to try and decry his efforts.
When he retires people will start talking up his legacy and should he ever have anything as unfortunate as M.S or Senna happen to him, god forbid, he'll be the next all time legend that they are now, albiet used as a stick to beat him with.

His record speaks for itself. He's definitely qualifed for the "Greatest of his era" gentlemen's club with his results. That's probably enough for him to be considered the greatest driver of his era and at the very least part of the conversation for greatest of all time every time F1 fans want to waste a spurious hour arguing with each other over what basically boils down to what era they grew up watching and who their personal favourites are.

[chunterer]

I don't agree that when Kovy joined McLaren he was expected to challenge Hamilton but he was expected to be closer based on his stellar drives in the Enstone in '07.

But I also seem to recall, Heikki may have been one of the few drivers available fairly short notice with Alonso's abrupt departure? Anyone recall if anyone else was in the frame?

It was '09 where Kovy really plummeted, though. That car was ordinary and even Hamilton struggled with it.

[Adam43]

I don’t think Kovalainen was taken on to be a subservient no2. He ended up being pummeled by Hamilton so he just looked weak. Also, chunterer, I suspect you were right, they probably got the best available at the time.

Quick comment on Prost not wanting a weaker team mate. He famously suggested Senna and then endured that so you can see why he was wary of doing it again. He also had Mansell at Ferrari. He probably eventually just found it tiring.

As for Schumacher, that was as much the team as it was him, I suspect. And who could blame them, it worked.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I don’t think Kovalainen was taken on to be a subservient no2. He ended up being pummeled by Hamilton so he just looked weak. Also, chunterer, I suspect you were right, they probably got the best available at the time.

Quick comment on Prost not wanting a weaker team mate. He famously suggested Senna and then endured that so you can see why he was wary of doing it again. He also had Mansell at Ferrari. He probably eventually just found it tiring.

As for Schumacher, that was as much the team as it was him, I suspect. And who could blame them, it worked.

I think it's as much a team effort regarding Mercedes and Hamilton, with Toto Wolff as Team Principal, Hamlton's race engineer Peter Bonnington, who was with Mercedes when Schumacher drove for them, and since 2017 Technical Director James Allison.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I don’t think Kovalainen was taken on to be a subservient no2. He ended up being pummeled by Hamilton so he just looked weak. Also, chunterer, I suspect you were right, they probably got the best available at the time.

Quick comment on Prost not wanting a weaker team mate. He famously suggested Senna and then endured that so you can see why he was wary of doing it again. He also had Mansell at Ferrari. He probably eventually just found it tiring.

As for Schumacher, that was as much the team as it was him, I suspect. And who could blame them, it worked.

Heikki said on his Beyond the Grid podcast something like he wasn’t mentally prepared or he underestimated what it took to compete with Lewis in the same team, I can’t remember exactly. Anyway he said it would have been had he known what he knows now.

And as for Prost, I think the drivers he had as team mates shows that he wasn’t afraid of a challenge. Him not wanting Senna at Williams was more that he didn’t want the disharmony they had at McLaren. Nothing to do with Senna’s speed, he just wanted a team that was easy to work in

[FAS33]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

I thought you said he was lucky? I will read the post again later, but I'm watching State of Origin rugby league atm.

QUEEEEEEEEENSLANDERRRRR!

How useless are the blues.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

This is off topic, and it will be my last post on it. But I quote because here's a guy who's not from Victoria and is a Melbourne Storm fan and he's quoting me, a guy from Melbourne who's a Penrith Panthers fan.

Even I can appreciate the wonderful troll the internet gods have brought upon me.

Originally Posted by FAS33

QUEEEEEEEEENSLANDERRRRR!

How useless are the blues.

[coppice]

Why does anybody even care ? It's a meaningless accolade , and nobody will change their opinion anyway , regardless of whatever creatively curated set of stats is tabled .

Some drivers make you tingle when you watch them at work. Some manage to do so throughout their career (Senna, Stewart , Peterson, Alonso and Hamilton ) , some only for part of it ( mid- late Mansell , early Ickx , early - mid Vettel , early Scheckter , mid Lauda ) and others , too numerous to mention, rarely arouse much of a tingle at all - even if they were as blindingly fast as Prost or as all arms and elbows as Jarier.

The appeal of motor racing to me is the visceral excitement you feel trackside , watching a master at work .Agonising over GOATS is a joyless fireside attraction at best .