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Old 16 Nov 2020, 08:01 (Ref:4017172)   #151
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Bottas was a victim at turn one of others collision, but the damage was done when he hit Ocon at turn 9...
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Old 16 Nov 2020, 08:06 (Ref:4017174)   #152
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Originally Posted by Razzzor View Post
I know some of you like to see masterclass drives, but I couldn't care to see Lulu win yet again.

We still talk about underdog wins like Panis, Vettel in the TR, Gasly this year, Maldonado at Spain. Because they're exciting and memorable. Do we remember that Lewis won that same Spanish GP 5 times, and the Italian GP 5 times. Does anyone remember ANY of those victories?

No one gives a damn because he's won 93 others and will likely reach 100 before he retires.
Who are you speaking for exactly, when you say that no one gives a damn?

If a driver has won 93 times, it stands to reason that certain races will not jump to mind immediately when compared with an unexpected one-hit wonder.

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This WAS an exciting race and would have been memorable, but in the end it's just another good job by Lewis in clearly the best car while his team mate puts in the kind of drive that looks like he doesn't even belong in F1. Lewis pulled out 30 seconds on the field in the last 20 laps on old tyres. That's not just a good drive, the car just was that much better and not using its tyres as much as others. He couldn't overtake to save himself, but as soon as he got clean air, he was gone.
On the contary, I would argue that after he retires, this will be one of the races that people will remember most when looking back on Hamiltons career. You are criticising him for struggling to overtake in the initial stages, and then criticising him in the very same paragraph for dissappearing into the distance later in the race. It's almost as if there is nothing he can do no right in your eyes

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Instead it's another domination by Lewis, complaining about Merc's worst qualifying ever and they're in big trouble, the guy who would rather see more African-Americans in F1 than win another championship. That's cool Lewis, the title obviously doesn't mean that much to you anymore so why don't you retire and start a young driver recruitment agency.
So your takeaway from this is that Hamilton is not bothered about the title? Thats strange, because what he was saying and the way he was reacting after the race told the absolute opposite message.

The fact that Hamilton is seeking equality is a strange thing for you to bring up here. You mention it as if it is a bad thing?

Anyway, it does not sound like Hamilton is going to retire any time soon, you will be dissapointed to hear. Nor does it sound like he was stop pushing for equality.


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Feel sorry for Stroll being thrown on inters again with the car clearly terrible on them on a drying track. He'd out-performed Perez up to this point, taking the pole and pulling away early on quite convincingly, and yet Stroll is supposed to be the pay-driver only in F1 because of daddy. If Perez is really that good, he should be far ahead of Stroll. If FI didn't call Stroll into the pits then he possibly would have finished ahead of Perez. Is Perez deserving of a RB seat?
Agree that Stroll was driving well early on , but as conditions changed he struggled more and more. I dont know if it was the way his car was setup, or a different reason. Perez was on Strolls gearbox when he pitted, and I guess would have got past sooner rather than later.

Perez is now 4th in the WDC, and in my opinion is deserving of a good seat. I think he would win races in the Red Bull.
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Old 16 Nov 2020, 08:44 (Ref:4017180)   #153
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Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star View Post
Bottas got the better of the start but somehow that meant he was worse off again!

Nice to see a lack of sympathy itt about it.
there was 57.75 further laps to do something...Charles proved you could work your way up, Bottas proved he could spin 4 more times and be lapped.

Just calling a spade a spade, he had a dismal day, im sure youd be the first to jump on Lewis if he had a bad day ;-)
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Old 16 Nov 2020, 09:43 (Ref:4017190)   #154
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Max will lap the field twice if it is wet.
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Old 16 Nov 2020, 10:00 (Ref:4017192)   #155
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My penchant for extreme exaggeration and hangover of Hamilton fan pessimism from years ago still going strong. *

Max really threw it away yesterday. Just an awful performance created by him being mad about being outqualified by Lance Stroll.
An absolute headcase.





*also just a really, really thick person
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Old 16 Nov 2020, 10:01 (Ref:4017193)   #156
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Originally Posted by Razzzor View Post
Sainz and Leclerc remarkable come-backs. How does Sainz end up only 2 secs behind Perez? It'll be good to see what he can do in the Ferrari next year. And Leclerc beating Vettel when at one stage he was 10 positions behind him.

Feel sorry for Stroll being thrown on inters again with the car clearly terrible on them on a drying track. He'd out-performed Perez up to this point, taking the pole and pulling away early on quite convincingly, and yet Stroll is supposed to be the pay-driver only in F1 because of daddy. If Perez is really that good, he should be far ahead of Stroll. If FI didn't call Stroll into the pits then he possibly would have finished ahead of Perez. Is Perez deserving of a RB seat?
I think the 2-stop for inters was as a good strategy call. Most (= all except Perez, Hamilton and Kvyat) did it.

Not sure why it didn't work out for Stroll, and why Perez lost so much time to Hamilton.
Maybe the Racing Point wasn't as much at ease when the track was getting less wet, and the Mercedes was gettign better. That would explain why both Perez and Stroll were losing out to those around them.

In a way, I think it was smart for Racing Point to split their strategies - just like they did in Q3 at the start.
If you need one driver to go to the end on used tyres, I'd pick Perez for that one too.


IMO the changing situation took the momentum away from Racing Point and there was no strategy call that would have countered that.
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Old 16 Nov 2020, 10:09 (Ref:4017194)   #157
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Originally Posted by Razzzor View Post
I know some of you like to see masterclass drives, but I couldn't care to see Lulu win yet again.

We still talk about underdog wins like Panis, Vettel in the TR, Gasly this year, Maldonado at Spain. Because they're exciting and memorable. Do we remember that Lewis won that same Spanish GP 5 times, and the Italian GP 5 times. Does anyone remember ANY of those victories?

No one gives a damn because he's won 93 others and will likely reach 100 before he retires.

This WAS an exciting race and would have been memorable, but in the end it's just another good job by Lewis in clearly the best car while his team mate puts in the kind of drive that looks like he doesn't even belong in F1. Lewis pulled out 30 seconds on the field in the last 20 laps on old tyres. That's not just a good drive, the car just was that much better and not using its tyres as much as others. He couldn't overtake to save himself, but as soon as he got clean air, he was gone.

We could have had a classic GP today with Perez fighting across the line (or last corner) with Leclerc, Vettel, Sainz all finishing nose-to-tail. And we'll all be excited about F1 again with a finish straight out of the Moto GP playbook. Instead it's another domination by Lewis, complaining about Merc's worst qualifying ever and they're in big trouble, the guy who would rather see more African-Americans in F1 than win another championship. That's cool Lewis, the title obviously doesn't mean that much to you anymore so why don't you retire and start a young driver recruitment agency.

Even Vettel winning would have been quite good, because for sure it'll be his last F1 win.

As for the others, Max really looked rubbish in this race, yet still beats Albon. What the hell is Albon doing out there? He should be better than this.

Sainz and Leclerc remarkable come-backs. How does Sainz end up only 2 secs behind Perez? It'll be good to see what he can do in the Ferrari next year. And Leclerc beating Vettel when at one stage he was 10 positions behind him.

Feel sorry for Stroll being thrown on inters again with the car clearly terrible on them on a drying track. He'd out-performed Perez up to this point, taking the pole and pulling away early on quite convincingly, and yet Stroll is supposed to be the pay-driver only in F1 because of daddy. If Perez is really that good, he should be far ahead of Stroll. If FI didn't call Stroll into the pits then he possibly would have finished ahead of Perez. Is Perez deserving of a RB seat?
Blimey! Who pulled your chain?
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Old 16 Nov 2020, 10:26 (Ref:4017196)   #158
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Broadly speaking, I think some people here are being a bit harsh on some drivers, and some teams. The combination of rain and new tarmac yesterday were so far outside the normal operating window of a F1 car that no-one could be expected to design for it. Some teams and drivers were lucky in having a less-bad car than others.

Stroll looked remarkably at ease in the early stages and I was throwing all my past opinions of him into the bin. Later on I pulled them back out, but perhaps I was wrong as lots of people put his snatching of defeat from the jaws of victory down to the team's strategy. Maybe.

I was not impressed by Hamilton early on. He had a good start and then threw places away with a visit to the outer reaches of a run-off area. He seemed to be struggling to get past Vettel whereas Albon managed it quickly, but as things turned out I think he was just biding his time. Later in the race he and Bono seemed to be the only people who realised that bald inters worked rather well on the drying line. They also seemed to realise that the wear-rate slowed right down once the tread was gone. Respect!

Verstappen was unduly rattled by his failure to get pole. I thought he would get over that by the time of the race, but perhaps that was why he dropped the clutch far too hard on the start. Or perhaps he just misjudged it. Or perhaps the Honda was just not user-friendly in those conditions (Albon had a poor start too). Whatever, it sounded and looked terrible in the on-board shot and I think his brain melted after that. Every attempt to make up for the poor start made things worse.
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Old 16 Nov 2020, 10:58 (Ref:4017210)   #159
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It was a tricky weekend that's for sure and with that in mind, it was amazing so many of them managed to finish. It was a race that could have gone any which way in those conditions. I feel for those, like RP, who had no chance on their inters.

Stroll, he is a great talent no doubt about it. But hopefully in future he will have the confidence to overall the team too. Maybe he could have done better in the dry, but you never know

Hamilton did as best as job he could and he got the win, helped a bit by circumstances. His mistakes at the beginning didn't help him, but he came back. He certainly seemed to bide his time after that. No hurrying to get past Vettel and the Red Bulls, let Albon and Vettel sort things out between them and things will open up. Which is what happened. If it had got dry it might have been a different story, yet he got very imaginitive with his inters on a damp surface. It's a shame no one could challenge him, that would have made it more interesting, but he did no more than necessary to win

And yes, Max certainly seemed to be overdriving, even if the Red Bull didn't look that good. Obviously he had to try and get something out of the car, but it bit him badly. And it would have been hard to get a good start from where he was, but he gave it too much bite off the start. I do think this shouldn't detract from the very good job he's done with the car this season. He was just trying too hard today with the car he had. At least it was good to see both cars up there, Max and Alex both finding it tricky all the same. It was very tough for them. But hey, these things happen. Max has done enough most weekends to show this is just a one off
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Old 16 Nov 2020, 11:39 (Ref:4017226)   #160
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There were several fine drives out there.

Not all of them were racelong but that can clearly be down to how the various cars handled in the changing conditions and how they worked the tyres.

For example, the RP's and RB's were superb in the very damp but not as strong on the dryin surface?

The Merc was the complete opposite, well in Lewis hands, anyway!

I thought Stroll was great early on but perhaps took too much out of his tyres. I guess he was just pushing to build a gap expecting Max or Lewis to hunt him down as the race wore on?

Also, Albon looked extremely assured in the wet first half but less so in the drying stages. This suggests to me he has great (too much?) sensitivity or feel when the car is not at it's full potential? In the dry he still can't max it out (no pun intended).

The 3 drivers who arguably shome throughout were Perez, Vettel and Sainz.

Sainz has hardly been mentioned yet he was relentless in his progress through the field. A stunning drive.

With the Merc I wonder how much the DAS thing aided Hamilton once the surface became less treacherous? Whatever the case I don't think i've ever seen a car go from 'undriveable' to dominant in such a short space of time. I appreciate Lewis is a superb driver in tricky conditions and there's little doubt his patience paid him back later on but the turnaround was staggering.

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Old 16 Nov 2020, 12:06 (Ref:4017233)   #161
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Didn't seem to help Bottas much.

The Merc was fine, but it just took an age to get the tyres going. It seemed to be many laps behind the other cars at getting up to speed. You would think the DAS would have alleviated that problem if anything.

The one bit of luck Merc had was that there were no safety cars. A bunched restart might have seen Hamilton engulfed by the pack (and of course wiped out any advantage gained by keeping the intermediates alive).

Sainz is great isn't he? Just needs more luck!
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Old 16 Nov 2020, 12:16 (Ref:4017239)   #162
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Didn't seem to help Bottas much.

The Merc was fine, but it just took an age to get the tyres going. It seemed to be many laps behind the other cars at getting up to speed. You would think the DAS would have alleviated that problem if anything.

The one bit of luck Merc had was that there were no safety cars. A bunched restart might have seen Hamilton engulfed by the pack (and of course wiped out any advantage gained by keeping the intermediates alive).

Sainz is great isn't he? Just needs more luck!
When Bottas tangled with Ocon at Turn 9, on the opening lap, the damage made it difficult to drive due the alignment of his steering wheel.
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Old 16 Nov 2020, 12:19 (Ref:4017241)   #163
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When Bottas tangled with Ocon at Turn 9, on the opening lap, the damage made it difficult to drive due the alignment of his steering wheel.
That was a bit mean spirited I confess.
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Old 16 Nov 2020, 12:24 (Ref:4017242)   #164
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not sure if its been mentioned, but the cars and drivers that are usually too hard on their tyres shone early, the cars and drivers kind on their tyres shone late.

that kind of makes sense. while the track was too cold and wet, hamilton, Perez (in relation to stroll) struggled, but their kindness allowed them to come to the fore later on purely becuase they managed to keep their tyres intact in the more grippy phase of the race.
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Old 16 Nov 2020, 12:41 (Ref:4017249)   #165
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not sure if its been mentioned, but the cars and drivers that are usually too hard on their tyres shone early, the cars and drivers kind on their tyres shone late.

that kind of makes sense. while the track was too cold and wet, hamilton, Perez (in relation to stroll) struggled, but their kindness allowed them to come to the fore later on purely becuase they managed to keep their tyres intact in the more grippy phase of the race.
I'd like to think it was kindness on their part, more than anything else.
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Old 16 Nov 2020, 13:59 (Ref:4017260)   #166
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With regards to Stroll, Racing Point are reporting that there was underside damage to the front spoiler, causing loss of downforce - which they could see on the telemetry but not understand until they got it back into the garage. It would certainly explain his loss of form after a really good first half of the race.


One of the things I find telling is that Lewis could have parked the car up and still become World Champion again yesterday, but of course that isn't his mental make-up. I think he was taking a relatively cautious approach early on / saving the tyres as much as possible? - a bit like Sutton biding his time on Turkington until he knew a pass was 100% - but he was certainly prepared to take the chance on almost destroyed tyres when the team were urging him to come on for an "almost" certainly safe stop which would leave him (just) in the lead.
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Old 16 Nov 2020, 15:19 (Ref:4017274)   #167
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Max really threw it away yesterday. Just an awful performance created by him being mad about being outqualified by Lance Stroll.
I reckon that played apart. However I also think that in these type of races he really wants to show he is the best. In normal races the car is always the main differentiator. Here was another chance to show what he was capable of. It's just that in these conditions and this track being patient and conserving the tyres was perhaps even more important than driving the ultimate laptimes. I think he just got too frustrated about being stuck first behind Vettel and then behind Perez. I think a very useful lesson in light of future championship battles.

I reckon with the 2022 rules wet races will become much more interesting still, because you will have a few more options to overtaking and in a wet race they probably can leave the DRS off all race.

Verstappen also went too long on the full wet's. Sure he was just as fast as the other's on the intermediates for a few lapes, but on the inters he would've been faster still and probably not got stuck behind Perez.

Great race by Perez btw, somehow how smart he races and how well he conserves his tyres goes underrated. Same for Vettel. Hamilton obviously the same, but that's what most expect anyway. Bizar how long he kept those inter's alive. I find it quite special that a tyre can function (to a degree) over such a wide range of conditions and state of wear. At least good enough to win a race with.
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Old 16 Nov 2020, 15:28 (Ref:4017275)   #168
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I just think the Red Bull flattered to deceive after quali and obviously Max got a little over-keen at times to keep up. It was a great quali for them despite missing out on pole and sadly Max got a little overexcited to stay up there. It must have been hard when this was a big opportunity for them and he wanted to go that extra mile further than he usually did. He was very keen to get ahead of Vettel and Perez and show everyone what he could do if he had the chance. But I think it shows he still has much to learn. He’s done a very good job this season, but maybe hasn’t quite got the racing brain other top drivers have yet.

And yes Red Bull made a big gamble staying out on wets, in reality it wasn’t going to work. Even if they could maintain a decent pace on wets, they were only gonna be slower than those on inters, but hey, we can all say that with hindsight.

Perez, though, what a drive. He’s always had it in him, he’s a very good driver, maybe not a great like some, but certainly someone who always has plenty of good drives in him. He really has shown what he can do this season after many years when he could be a bit up and down depending on how his car performed. Now he’s got one that’s a regular front runner we have been reminded that the talent has never gone away
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Old 16 Nov 2020, 15:37 (Ref:4017278)   #169
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I reckon that played apart. However I also think that in these type of races he really wants to show he is the best. In normal races the car is always the main differentiator. Here was another chance to show what he was capable of. It's just that in these conditions and this track being patient and conserving the tyres was perhaps even more important than driving the ultimate laptimes. I think he just got too frustrated about being stuck first behind Vettel and then behind Perez. I think a very useful lesson in light of future championship battles.
I pretty much agree with this. I think the core skill that drives Max's ability to perform as well as he does is his ability to always be pushing hard. So dialing it down a bit and being smoother and more patient might feel a bit foreign for him. It is a learning opportunity. Hopefully that is what he takes away from the weekend.

IMHO, Max also has a bit of a flippant/arrogant attitude at times (ie. "Not my problem" comments). So the amount of abuse heaped on him this weekend is a bit ironic!

As to Albon, he just is not wired the same as Max, so that probably helped him this weekend? Maybe a bit of natural patience allowed him to do better under bad conditions.

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Old 16 Nov 2020, 16:04 (Ref:4017280)   #170
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I reckon that played apart. However I also think that in these type of races he really wants to show he is the best. In normal races the car is always the main differentiator. Here was another chance to show what he was capable of...
also agreed and i do think he puts a lot of pressure on himself and his anger or frustration is function of that.

they are paid a lot of money to deliver in these sorts of moments...he should take it seriously and feel the weight of it when he comes up short. his next victory may be all the sweeter as a result.

i think Lewis is a master of this...something about the way these types of personalities deals with their lows and highs probably does add to their ambitious/successful nature and as spectators we want that dont we?
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Old 16 Nov 2020, 16:32 (Ref:4017285)   #171
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also agreed and i do think he puts a lot of pressure on himself and his anger or frustration is function of that.

they are paid a lot of money to deliver in these sorts of moments...he should take it seriously and feel the weight of it when he comes up short. his next victory may be all the sweeter as a result.

i think Lewis is a master of this...something about the way these types of personalities deals with their lows and highs probably does add to their ambitious/successful nature and as spectators we want that dont we?
It wasn't that long ago when we would often see a petulant and sulky Hamilton, when things didn't go his way. He has matured under Toto Woolf's guidance. It will be interesting to see how he copes without TW as Team Principle next year, especially as driver and team will be transitioning to the 2022 car.
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Old 16 Nov 2020, 16:33 (Ref:4017286)   #172
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TrapezeArtist should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTrapezeArtist should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTrapezeArtist should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTrapezeArtist should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Did anyone else notice the worn inters still had lots of tread on the outside third and the inside shoulder? Over-inflated due to Pirelli's minimum pressures maybe?
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Old 16 Nov 2020, 16:37 (Ref:4017287)   #173
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Did anyone else notice the worn inters still had lots of tread on the outside third and the inside shoulder? Over-inflated due to Pirelli's minimum pressures maybe?
I did, the middle of the tyre was slick but I can't remember seeing a marked difference between Hamilton's tyres and Vettel's.
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Old 16 Nov 2020, 16:48 (Ref:4017289)   #174
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I know some of you like to see masterclass drives, but I couldn't care to see Lulu win yet again.

We still talk about underdog wins like Panis, Vettel in the TR, Gasly this year, Maldonado at Spain. Because they're exciting and memorable. Do we remember that Lewis won that same Spanish GP 5 times, and the Italian GP 5 times. Does anyone remember ANY of those victories?

No one gives a damn because he's won 93 others and will likely reach 100 before he retires.

This WAS an exciting race and would have been memorable, but in the end it's just another good job by Lewis in clearly the best car while his team mate puts in the kind of drive that looks like he doesn't even belong in F1. Lewis pulled out 30 seconds on the field in the last 20 laps on old tyres. That's not just a good drive, the car just was that much better and not using its tyres as much as others. He couldn't overtake to save himself, but as soon as he got clean air, he was gone.

We could have had a classic GP today with Perez fighting across the line (or last corner) with Leclerc, Vettel, Sainz all finishing nose-to-tail. And we'll all be excited about F1 again with a finish straight out of the Moto GP playbook. Instead it's another domination by Lewis, complaining about Merc's worst qualifying ever and they're in big trouble, the guy who would rather see more African-Americans in F1 than win another championship. That's cool Lewis, the title obviously doesn't mean that much to you anymore so why don't you retire and start a young driver recruitment agency.

Even Vettel winning would have been quite good, because for sure it'll be his last F1 win.

As for the others, Max really looked rubbish in this race, yet still beats Albon. What the hell is Albon doing out there? He should be better than this.

Sainz and Leclerc remarkable come-backs. How does Sainz end up only 2 secs behind Perez? It'll be good to see what he can do in the Ferrari next year. And Leclerc beating Vettel when at one stage he was 10 positions behind him.

Feel sorry for Stroll being thrown on inters again with the car clearly terrible on them on a drying track. He'd out-performed Perez up to this point, taking the pole and pulling away early on quite convincingly, and yet Stroll is supposed to be the pay-driver only in F1 because of daddy. If Perez is really that good, he should be far ahead of Stroll. If FI didn't call Stroll into the pits then he possibly would have finished ahead of Perez. Is Perez deserving of a RB seat?
People focus far too much on the end result and not how much fun it was getting there

Like Hamilton or not, that race was a lot of fun to watch, and if we are entertained enough it matters not what the end result is

Same with entire seasons tbh. There's been plenty of fantastic racing in "dull" seasons, and plenty of dull races in "close" title seasons, like most of them in the mid point of the 00s, aside from the wet races
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Old 16 Nov 2020, 16:57 (Ref:4017291)   #175
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People focus far too much on the end result and not how much fun it was getting there

Like Hamilton or not, that race was a lot of fun to watch, and if we are entertained enough it matters not what the end result is

Same with entire seasons tbh. There's been plenty of fantastic racing in "dull" seasons, and plenty of dull races in "close" title seasons, like most of them in the mid point of the 00s, aside from the wet races
Except that if your favourite driver and or team doesn't win or do well, then it can effect the end result and make it less entertaining.
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