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Old 12 Jan 2021, 17:37 (Ref:4028474)   #2551
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Originally Posted by Mike Harte View Post
Since when has enforcing the law or rules become over zealous? Have you ever tried to take a piece of fruit that you got on an aircraft but haven't yet consumed through the immigration area when you arrive in somewhere like Australia. They would have it off you immediately, and possibly fine you as well!
The Aussies are used to that. Even internally.

https://www.agric.wa.gov.au/exportin...ate-travellers

Presumably they have experiences like foxes, rabbits, camels and cane toads to illustrate the problems and have simply carried the worries through to flora as well as fauna.

Some of the flora restrictions - Eucalyptus related for example - seem odd but presumably Western Aus is far enough removed from the rest of Aus for any inter-species threat within a native flora to still represent problems within the state.

Comments about that suggestion from locals encouraged.
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Old 12 Jan 2021, 17:43 (Ref:4028475)   #2552
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Actually consuming things before arrival at various locations can be humorous. I recall one flight from Moscow to Doha where many of the passengers consumed all their duty free, which was interesting because you can't take duty free into Qatar thus you can't buy it at the airport.

Anyway a number of fights broke out about an hour from landing, resulting in me and the remaining sober passengers getting off and through immigration in short order.
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Old 12 Jan 2021, 18:10 (Ref:4028479)   #2553
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I've no experience of these things as I said, but is not the idea of the carnet to stop you taking a car/spares into a country and dropping it off thereby evading duty? Therefore if the carnet is designed to make sure you take out what you went in with, it should make no difference if you are a team like me or a privateer.

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Old 12 Jan 2021, 18:14 (Ref:4028480)   #2554
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Since when has enforcing the law or rules become over zealous? Have you ever tried to take a piece of fruit that you got on an aircraft but haven't yet consumed through the immigration area when you arrive in somewhere like Australia. They would have it off you immediately, and possibly fine you as well!

They are just enforcing the rules, just like we now have to because Nigel Farage wanted to leave the EU, and Cameron at al wouldn't face him down.

The point surely is that whereas it is indeed the "letter of the law", in reality the zealous enforcement of it, when it is patently obvious that there is no health risk - as the goods would have been identical a few days earlier and waved through with no thought of a check - does smack of "sour grapes", so to speak, from a jobsworth. Reports that the customs officials were commenting "welcome to Brexit" merely emphasise that. Ironically of course at least one of the people who reported having his butty nicked was a Polish resident.



However, its a minor irritant and won't affect me when I drive off my Stena line crossing as I'll have eaten on the boat
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Old 12 Jan 2021, 18:18 (Ref:4028482)   #2555
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I've no experience of these things as I said, but is not the idea of the carnet to stop you taking a car/spares into a country and dropping it off thereby evading duty? Therefore if the carnet is designed to make sure you take out what you went in with, it should make no difference if you are a team like me or a privateer.

Indeed, I'm sure that is the case - however if the trade agreement between UK and EU ensures that there is no tariff on the goods, what is the point? Other than needless bureaucracy (and a profit for any involved in rip-off carnet certification ) ?
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Old 12 Jan 2021, 18:59 (Ref:4028496)   #2556
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I've no experience of these things as I said, but is not the idea of the carnet to stop you taking a car/spares into a country and dropping it off thereby evading duty? Therefore if the carnet is designed to make sure you take out what you went in with, it should make no difference if you are a team like me or a privateer.
You say "should". A privateer is not "supposed" to make business with car/spares. And who can check if you leave your country with a top notch engine in your van and bring back a total wreck with no crank/pistons. Nobody!
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Old 12 Jan 2021, 21:44 (Ref:4028520)   #2557
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I've no experience of these things as I said, but is not the idea of the carnet to stop you taking a car/spares into a country and dropping it off thereby evading duty? Therefore if the carnet is designed to make sure you take out what you went in with, it should make no difference if you are a team like me or a privateer.

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Evading duty? What duty?
WTO terms would have meant duty, the deal does not.
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Old 12 Jan 2021, 22:56 (Ref:4028536)   #2558
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You say "should". A privateer is not "supposed" to make business with car/spares. And who can check if you leave your country with a top notch engine in your van and bring back a total wreck with no crank/pistons. Nobody!
Even if you did and it was checked and discovered a simply engine blow up would explain the discrepancy surely?

It happens all of the time doesn't it? But only to non-professionals of course ...
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Old 13 Jan 2021, 00:39 (Ref:4028547)   #2559
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The whole point about carnets of both types is to avoid paying import duty on goods for temporary import and then re-export.

However as the deal we signed with EU is duty-free and quota-free, where is the need?

Anyone?
VAT?

As for those mentioning the "duplicate list" (something I've never heard of), have a look at the very limited goods you can use it for.
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Old 13 Jan 2021, 00:54 (Ref:4028548)   #2560
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One piece of 'good' news is that at least those of you lucky enough to own vehicles over 50 years old and valued at over £65,000 won't need to apply for an export licence each time you take it abroad for a race meeting as there is a specific exemption

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2.An individual export licence is not required to export the following goods
...
c)any motor vehicle (wherever registered) over 50 years of age (other than those designed or adapted for military or paramilitary use) temporarily exported for a period of less than 6 months for use for social, domestic or pleasure purposes (including attendance at or participation in a race, rally, or non-commercial exhibition)
From https://www.artscouncil.org.uk/sites...1%202021_0.pdf

And to reply to Gerard's comment of "And who can check if you leave your country with a top notch engine in your van and bring back a total wreck with no crank/pistons. Nobody! "

The engine number would have to be quoted on the carnet and Border Force can check. The same applies to chassis numbers for complete vehicles.
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Old 13 Jan 2021, 01:16 (Ref:4028550)   #2561
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And to reply to Gerard's comment of "And who can check if you leave your country with a top notch engine in your van and bring back a total wreck with no crank/pistons. Nobody! "

The engine number would have to be quoted on the carnet and Border Force can check. The same applies to chassis numbers for complete vehicles.
We used to use removable engine and chassis numbers back in the day, as did pretty much all teams - just a simple plate attached with araldite or rivets. That is how F1 teams would regularly build 9 or more cars per year but only have 4-5 chassis listed on carnets.

How the history buffs then trace the real history of what chassis was used by driver X at the Biddleonian Grand Prix in '72 has always eluded me, although most teams have their own records.

Feel for you guys over there trying to work it all out - it's a big change after so many years of not having Carnets etc. One word of advice if I may: if you are able to come and go with a vehicle that is exempt, it is worth carrying the basis for the exemption (Eu law for example) with you in multiple languages - avoids significant problems at odd border crossings if you can back up what you're doing with a reference to relevant laws or statutes etc.
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Old 13 Jan 2021, 06:12 (Ref:4028571)   #2562
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Evading duty? What duty?

WTO terms would have meant duty, the deal does not.
Like I said, IDK. I have an allergy to paperwork, I'm just asking questions. You make a very good point but without a good knowledge of the trade agreement I can't answer you. We need someone to take the question up with MSUK, step up David, you have a handle on this!

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Old 13 Jan 2021, 06:58 (Ref:4028578)   #2563
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The engine number would have to be quoted on the carnet and Border Force can check. The same applies to chassis numbers for complete vehicles.
When we blew our RSR engine at Spa in '75, we went to Jürgen and discussed about a crate engine or long block. Arrived to the carnet thing, JB just replied that none of the works ones had been stamped.
With the moves of technology, I guess we'll have to have a number, bar code, QR laser graved on everything, including T-shirts and spanners.
I think the FIA is working with MSUK to find a solution.
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Old 13 Jan 2021, 07:23 (Ref:4028579)   #2564
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...........
I think the FIA is working with MSUK to find a solution.
Very encouraging.........
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Old 13 Jan 2021, 07:46 (Ref:4028580)   #2565
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I would just say that yes the FIA is investigating.

The fact is that this has and will have an impact on the sport and the fault is to put on the Brexit. EU and all major countries such as Switzerland and even all the way to Turkey have built and have had agreements for circulations of goods for years, it did not happen overnight. So clarification and answer cannot either be expected overnight either as it's not as straightforward as one may think.

Commercial, non-commercial, registered, non-registered, there are various aspects linked to customs but not only. The other aspect is that glimpse and bits of information spread over huge number of posts will not answer the questions. Wait and information will be clarified.
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Old 13 Jan 2021, 08:10 (Ref:4028585)   #2566
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We used to use removable engine and chassis numbers back in the day, as did pretty much all teams - just a simple plate attached with araldite or rivets. That is how F1 teams would regularly build 9 or more cars per year but only have 4-5 chassis listed on carnets.

How the history buffs then trace the real history of what chassis was used by driver X at the Biddleonian Grand Prix in '72 has always eluded me, although most teams have their own records.

Feel for you guys over there trying to work it all out - it's a big change after so many years of not having Carnets etc. One word of advice if I may: if you are able to come and go with a vehicle that is exempt, it is worth carrying the basis for the exemption (Eu law for example) with you in multiple languages - avoids significant problems at odd border crossings if you can back up what you're doing with a reference to relevant laws or statutes etc.
Exactly!

It has often amazed me how much reliance people put on the history of cars/engines for that very reason.

Similarly, people get very excited when two cars with an interesting history emerge bearing the same chassis number. It is not impossible that both can be correct.
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Old 13 Jan 2021, 09:16 (Ref:4028593)   #2567
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I would just say that yes the FIA is investigating.

The fact is that this has and will have an impact on the sport and the fault is to put on the Brexit. EU and all major countries such as Switzerland and even all the way to Turkey have built and have had agreements for circulations of goods for years, it did not happen overnight. So clarification and answer cannot either be expected overnight either as it's not as straightforward as one may think.

Commercial, non-commercial, registered, non-registered, there are various aspects linked to customs but not only. The other aspect is that glimpse and bits of information spread over huge number of posts will not answer the questions. Wait and information will be clarified.
Thanks again Louis, I suspect you will receive encouragement from many sources including Redwater and Peter Auto, Masters and possibly MRL to name a few.

It does appear that the MSUK arrangement has followed a business rather than an "amateur" approach which is strange since I suspect their biggest audience would be us amateurs.
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Old 13 Jan 2021, 09:36 (Ref:4028635)   #2568
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[Mod]I've copied the relevant post about Carnets to a new thread. Feel free to post any info or updates in that threa.[/Mod]

https://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=155870
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Old 13 Jan 2021, 11:47 (Ref:4028677)   #2569
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Old 13 Jan 2021, 12:50 (Ref:4028694)   #2570
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The EU's Cross-Border Enforcement Directive no longer applies, French officials have said, so British-registered vehicles will no longer be sent fines for offences detected by roadside cameras.
Similarly, motorists with vehicles registered in the EU caught speeding in Britain will not be sent fines.


Mind you I have been stopped and fined beside the road in France and Spain, if you can't or wont pay they will confiscate your vehicle. A friend of mine got pulled over in Bulgaria after crossing a double white line when slowly driving past a broken down lorry on a hill. The cops were sitting watching for any "foreign" plated vehicles and stopping and fining them on the spot but funnily enough they seemed to let locals drive away ! I think the cops shared out the takings because they refused to give any receipts out !!!!
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Old 13 Jan 2021, 15:35 (Ref:4028745)   #2571
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The EU's Cross-Border Enforcement Directive no longer applies, French officials have said, so British-registered vehicles will no longer be sent fines for offences detected by roadside cameras.
Similarly, motorists with vehicles registered in the EU caught speeding in Britain will not be sent fines.


Mind you I have been stopped and fined beside the road in France and Spain, if you can't or wont pay they will confiscate your vehicle. A friend of mine got pulled over in Bulgaria after crossing a double white line when slowly driving past a broken down lorry on a hill. The cops were sitting watching for any "foreign" plated vehicles and stopping and fining them on the spot but funnily enough they seemed to let locals drive away ! I think the cops shared out the takings because they refused to give any receipts out !!!!
I have seen claims that the French had targeted UK drivers for speeding fines . And the total figures were something like £50 millions . Sounds a bit far fetched , but it might mean they will need to make up the loss of income by chasing GERARD for more money ??
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Old 13 Jan 2021, 16:11 (Ref:4028754)   #2572
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I have seen claims that the French had targeted UK drivers for speeding fines . And the total figures were something like £50 millions . Sounds a bit far fetched , but it might mean they will need to make up the loss of income by chasing GERARD for more money ??
I got stopped in France towing my ski boat down to Spain, OK I was doing over 90mph on one of those single carriageway roads that are straight for about 10 miles ! however the cops locked me into the back of their van and would not let me go until I gave them the money. I tried joking with them in my best Spanish but that made things worse
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Old 13 Jan 2021, 17:37 (Ref:4028773)   #2573
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Sounds a bit far fetched , but it might mean they will need to make up the loss of income by chasing GERARD for more money ??
What?

After so many years, we know that French are targeted by belgian Police. Those people must have the calendar of Spa events sticked on the dashboard…*And they dont like us at all! If you pretend having no cash, they offer you a free travel to next bank.
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Old 16 Jan 2021, 12:28 (Ref:4029417)   #2574
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When road use monitoring and pay-by-distance-travelled becomes the normal way of life for travellers speeding infringement fines will either be monetized as part of the subscription contract or eliminated by automated vehicle controls.

Either way travellers are likely to be used as a cash cow with little or no chance of avoiding payment.

On the plus side that might also mean that all forms of transport can be tracked and billed so hover boards, electric scooters, bicycles, etc. all have to pay for the "right to travel".
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Old 16 Jan 2021, 14:53 (Ref:4029446)   #2575
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Either way travellers are likely to be used as a cash cow with little or no chance of avoiding payment.
I think next step of technology will be the police forces to have free access to our bank account…
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