[Multi 21] Sir Lewis

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

It is pretty common in pro sports though....i have expectations!

That's probably a North American thing - not at all common in professional sports in most other countries / regions.

[S griffin]

North American sports stars always have that bit extra in their contract. It’s not all that simple compared with other countries’ sports

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Tourer

That's probably a North American thing - not at all common in professional sports in most other countries / regions.

I thought football/soccer salaries were public knowledge?

golf and tennis events all have known prize funds for every even and breakdown earnings for each competitor.

Dont know if its always been like this or just confirming to the n.a. norm though?

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

I thought football/soccer salaries were public knowledge?

golf and tennis events all have known prize funds for every even and breakdown earnings for each competitor.

Dont know if its always been like this or just confirming to the n.a. norm though?

Some are common knowledge, some aren't, depends on the country - plus there are often a large amount of non-cash benefits.

Golf / Tennis prize money is known but far less common is knowledge of sponsor deals and the like, which obviously contribute to overall income.

Even though "core" salary might or might not be known, the "finer details" of a sportsperson's contract are very rarely known, although it might be commonplace in North America.

[Adam43]

We shall never know what color M&Ms Lewis specifies in his rider.

[Last2LiftOff]

Originally Posted by Adam43

We shall never know what color M&Ms Lewis specifies in his rider.

Not until the autobiography.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Last2LiftOff

Not until the autobiography.

Hmm i shouldn't think there'll be refence to any of that in his life story! There's private life and there's private life.

[john ruston]

What is the point of knowing the value of contract?
We know who leads golfing money list but no idea how much companies pay the individuals eg Nike to Tiger Woods or Lowe’s paid Johnson.
It’s nonsense or nosey?
Feeds the envy bit!
Sure some of Lewis’s bosses have a much larger income than him!
Grenadier Jim wins that one!

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by john ruston

What is the point of knowing the value of contract?

In the context of normal employment contracts, knowing the value has little relevance to the public.
However, in the context of comparison between sports stars (other drivers and other sports), there is some relevance.
In the context of shareholder interest, very relevant.

I think some of the interest in a sports star's salary may be fed by the North-American salary cap system in major sports. Knowing how much Patrick Mahomes gets paid is very relevant to the fan when it comes to how much of the salary cap is used, and how much is left for the rest of the team.

If salary caps are incorporated into F1 in the future, the drivers' salaries may be subject to much more scrutiny. We're then into the realms of asking if you want an established driver on 10x the salary of a promising youngster? Does a driver's feedback make them more valuable against a cut in R&D budget?

[john ruston]

And when they know Mahoney percentage of the salary fund I assume that allows people on places like this to discuss if it’s to much and would it not be cheaper to have bought Tom for a couple of years!
We don’t get a vote so why bother.
Most things in US sport don’t export very well.The owners of Man U and Liverpool are proving that with their ideas of mirroring NFL basic philosophy and these follow with the screw up US owners made of Sunderland and Aston Villa.
Chances are Liberty will try to change F1 to the US model .Very little hope for future!

[chillibowl]

So then out of curiosity, what other major sports do you follow where the salaries are not known?

For me its about transparency and equitable renumeration.

Anyways, the shareholders of most of these teams care and because this stuff has to be disclosed we will find out in time more of the financial details.... unfortunately the info never comes from the teams to the fans.

Also, as crmalcolm alluded to, there are salary cap implications and the teams recently have been discussing and i believe have agreed in principle to a salary cap for drivers in F1.

LH has been vocal in his opposition to it.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

For me its about transparency and equitable renumeration.

Very admirable. There is no need for transparency really here in a non cost cap sport. For a share holders perspective, it isn’t that important, but I can see this argument I suppose. If your choice to invest in a Daimler hinges on Hamilton’s salary I think that might be a bit odd.

Equitable remuneration. He’s paid what the team feel he is worth, or maybe less if they have negotiated well. Lewis is getting what he feels he should get, or maybe more if he has negotiated well.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

So then out of curiosity, what other major sports do you follow where the salaries are not known?

For me its about transparency and equitable renumeration.

Anyways, the shareholders of most of these teams care and because this stuff has to be disclosed we will find out in time more of the financial details.... unfortunately the info never comes from the teams to the fans.

Also, as crmalcolm alluded to, there are salary cap implications and the teams recently have been discussing and i believe have agreed in principle to a salary cap for drivers in F1.

LH has been vocal in his opposition to it.

Think both you or i would be vocal if our bosses decided to substantially cut our salary even if you are on a multi million £ deal!

[chillibowl]

Indeed.

Beyond the risks they are taking, why should their employer reap the lion shares of the benefits?

Typically the (n.american) sports where salaries are known, it is also know how much the team or the league generates in revenue...salaries are then tied to a pecentage of that revenue. For me this is normal.

As mentioned, for me its about fairness and that requires transparency.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Equitable remuneration. He’s paid what the team feel he is worth, or maybe less if they have negotiated well. Lewis is getting what he feels he should get, or maybe more if he has negotiated well.

True for the top drivers who command a stronger bargaining position but there other drivers to consider.

Im a pretty left wing guy and tend to default to the side of labour over management and i feel myself wanting to make a political/collective bargaining argument...so im going to stop here.

[john ruston]

It’s a capitalist sport!

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by john ruston

It’s a capitalist sport!

Sure...lets measure how much money everyone makes then.

[john ruston]

Why measure !
It’s nobody’s else’s business!

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by john ruston

It’s a capitalist sport!

Isn't Lewis's contract the exact opposite of that, and an example of worker self-management?

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Isn't Lewis's contract the exact opposite of that, and an example of worker self-management?

haha right!

im getting drawn back in (i cant help myself)...i also think there are concerns about how the race crews and staff back at the factory are remunerated relative to the drivers wages and conversely how some staff on some teams are paid with funds brought in by the driver. for me details like this speaks to the nature of this being a team sport.

Originally Posted by john ruston

Why measure !
It’s nobody’s else’s business!

several pages and multiple threads here speculating about the terms of LH contract would suggest many have an interest in the details.

so i guess i question why the line is drawn at money?

clearly the length of the contract matters to us, Toto felt it necessary to remove speculation about certain clauses in the contract particularly the veto clause, and many here have speculated about what sort of terms LH might want in regards to sponsor obligations and his time off.

we basically talk about all the other terms except money so why is it that everything but money is fair game for discussion?

to me this seems like an arbitrary place to draw the line of 'none of our business'.

[Richard C]

I am curious as anyone as to details of the contracts of high level personnel in F1 (drivers, designers, etc.) as it can be fodder for discussion given these are high profile people. However, I also realize that there should be no expectation to know this information except when...

1. Regulations drive it to be public (or semi-public) such as financial budget cap regulations.
2. It exposes itself naturally such as the case of Lewis and Mercedes doing a public joint venture (you can't hide those things).
3. Parties choose to divulge for their own reasons (i.e. Autobiography, etc.)

Side sponsorship deals, what color M&Ms someone wants, right for teammate veto (or not), etc. are private matters. Again, not that I am not curious, will speculation and search out for any nugget of details online that might expose the details!

Richard

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

Indeed.

Beyond the risks they are taking, why should their employer reap the lion shares of the benefits?

Typically the (n.american) sports where salaries are known, it is also know how much the team or the league generates in revenue...salaries are then tied to a pecentage of that revenue. For me this is normal.

As mentioned, for me its about fairness and that requires transparency.

Not sure why fairness comes into it. In what way?

This isn’t a teaching job where everyone at a certain level expects a certain salary, this is high level sports where your salary reflects your worth in terms of success and return in investment.

Mercedes seems to think that Hamilton’s salary meets that test otherwise they wouldn’t have signed him....fairness doesn’t come into it

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Mercedes seems to think that Hamilton’s salary meets that test otherwise they wouldn’t have signed him....fairness doesn’t come into it

fair question.

i guess this is where my n.american/other sports i watch/political beliefs slant comes into it for me because this practice is such common place over here.

in the NBA, for example, the trading of players between teams requires an exchange of a similar amount of assets (so everyone knows everyone's salary). this protects small market teams from just losing out to the big teams who can afford to pay more. add in revenue sharing and salary/budget caps and you start to get a framework for a more balanced distribution of talent and resources. all this requires the teams to be transparent with us the fans from whom they generate this revenue in the first place.

does it always work...of course not but the overall trajectory, imo, has been a greater number of team capable of winning. so a more successful sports league. naturally i want the same thing for F1.

i've taken a few stabs at this now...not sure i can answer it any better.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

So then out of curiosity, what other major sports do you follow where the salaries are not known?

For me, as a few examples - MotoGP, various LMP series, 6 Nations, Rugby World Cup, Super Rugby - whole range of Rugby comps, International Cricket, NRL, Supercars - the list would be very long.

Originally Posted by chillibowl

For me its about transparency and equitable renumeration.

Anyways, the shareholders of most of these teams care and because this stuff has to be disclosed we will find out in time more of the financial details.... unfortunately the info never comes from the teams to the fans.

I don't agree that fairness comes into it - professional sport is a dog-eat-dog world and IMHO should remain so. What sports stars earn really doesn't concern me or anyone I know at all but what they do when they're playing or taking part in the sport concerned does - it is then that fairness (of rules) and transparency around rules, decisions and penalties or rewards is relevant.

In regard to shareholder disclosure, it is absolutely not the case that individual salaries or packages have to be disclosed - for sure the total salary costs of the organisation do and it is not unusual for CEO bonus structures and the like to be revealed to shareholders but it isn't mandatory reporting in all countries - although it might be the case in North America.

[crmalcolm]

Drifting (slightly) off topic, but we regularly hear discussion about whether a driver would perform as well in a lesser car. Maybe the NFL-style franchise system would work for F1?

Each team has a place on the grid, and the numbers are fairly fixed. There is very little inclination that new teams are looking to join or leave, so why not run it in a franchise manner?
The personnel at each team consists of a common 'roster', and new entrants to the sport are 'drafted'. We'd then have teams faced with the question of whether they want to spend part of their cap on a driver like Hamilton, or a designer like Newey.
Would you want to risk a deal for a Russell, or settle for the experience of a Bottas?