Saturday sprint races

[bathurst77]

SO many questions

does it earn points in constructor championship?

DO we let alternate drivers in instead of or in addition to sunday racers, the teams 3rd driver or "wild cards" in an extra car or in one of the 2 sunday cars to spice things up?

How would these saturday only drivers affect sunday grid position, and if a sunday driver is substituted by a one off driver, where will the main normal driver grid?

Wil the cars "parc ferme" after the race, so no special sprint set ups (including aero, suspension and engine modes)?

what if the car is damaged (likely) ? can they fix it overnight?
If a driver has an off on saturday and doesnt finish, is he back of grid on sunday?

DO they get supersoft tyres for saturday, do they have to use the same set of tyres to start on sunday as they raced on saturday?
WHat if they get a puncture or similar?

will we see drivers diving into the pit on the last lap to put on their sunday tyres or change set up for the main race?

Who wil be the 1st 10/10th-er to make a "saturday championship" points table. DO we award a "king of saturday sprint" at end of year?

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by BTCC frog

Then it would basically be a support race, which I think would be a good addition. My objection is if it was part of the Grand Prix (like a second race), and the drivers were given championship points. If it was a support race, for junior drivers, I would be for it.

The website run by ex Autospoders seems to be sure that the intent is for it to be for regulars, a points earning race and will have some sort of reverse grid intent?

This is the opposite of what was being reported before, no?

I'm not for it on that basis.

As I said previously, if it's for juniors/reserves it gives drivers and teams more opportunities to check each other out for the future and would be of huge benefit to everyone.

[steve_r]

Looking to other series that do more than one race per weekend, and how this affects the grid order of the successive races:

BTCC - has success ballast and partially reversed grid (randomly selected number of cars reversed between the top 6 and 10) for the 3rd race of the weekend based on race 2 results. Now, I love BTCC, but that is not the way that I would want F1 to go down.

WSBK - Had partially reversed grids based on previous race. The difference of course is that overtaking is very much easier. Jonathan Rea would often go from 10th to 1st within just 2 laps.

BSB - Successive race grids are set by fastest lap order from the previous race. This works well in this series. When BTCC introduced this it was a failure as many drivers did not properly compete in the 1st race, and just tried to set a one off good lap to get a favorable grid position in the next race.

World Touring Cars - Unless things have changed in the last year or so, this is the ultimate example of what not to do. They reverse grids, add very random and crippling success ballast, and have baffling stewards who used to give penalties for the tiniest contact and ignore other shunts. Like F1 but far worse!

I know that there are other series out there that have various rules with Saturday races determining Sunday grids. I don't think that there are any "perfect" solutions out there.

[Badlands99]

I think that a sprint race will just detract from the main race on a Sunday ....... and I don't see that it will spice up the grid for the main race - best packages will still shine through maybe with one or two exceptions following the odd issue and /or accident.
If it really is to spice things up ...... how about going back to something like the BMW M1 Pro Car races of yesteryear? Twenty identical, professionally prepared, high performance race cars (and I don't meant TCR or similar - maybe GTE/GT3 spec or better) and let the drivers race each other without worrying about damage to their precious F1 cars - maybe we would then see who is the best driver! That would spice the grid up a bit!

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Badlands99

I think that a sprint race will just detract from the main race on a Sunday ....... and I don't see that it will spice up the grid for the main race - best packages will still shine through maybe with one or two exceptions following the odd issue and /or accident.
If it really is to spice things up ...... how about going back to something like the BMW M1 Pro Car races of yesteryear? Twenty identical, professionally prepared, high performance race cars (and I don't meant TCR or similar - maybe GTE/GT3 spec or better) and let the drivers race each other without worrying about damage to their precious F1 cars - maybe we would then see who is the best driver! That would spice the grid up a bit!

Would be nice, was entertaining to watch the IROC guys in the US take on heavy (911s once, American heavies mostly Camaro and Firebirds with a couple Dodges) even cars setup by one guy so they were a test of driving around what you don't like and making the best of the car for the day.

BUT with all the fun contracts what cars do you use? Can Ferrari guys be seen in an AMG GT3, same for MB guys in a 458? What about Lance, & Vettel, and his new Aston branding? McLaren as well. The rest? Well build a racing Alfa above TCR and Haas, are they gonna bring a Cup car? Although that would be fun and stupid. Red Bull can bring their soapbox cars and Juniors can bring the fancy race suits. Alpine has some cars out there but I don't think they are current outside of the one make series. Williams? Well maybe a Jag with their fun bits like they've built in the past for everyone in the field and a Williams car can win again.

Assuming you would use GT3, (GT4 has McLaren, MB AMG, Aston) given the rarity of extra current GTEs lying around. Currently only Ferrari has GTE of the entrants, so maybe collect up a bunch of Porsches. Or they all get a Carrera SuperCup car for the day?

[Adam43]

They should use Austin Maestros. Not sure there is a GT3 version though

https://youtu.be/tXlMbP-uQt4

[Born Racer]

They could do a spot of karting. Oh, how it would be a dream to see them perform in equal machinery like that (as much as I enjoy the constructor nature of F1). Although can you imagine any accusations of unequal machinery, different set-ups and questions of karts suiting individuals' driving styles or not?

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Adam43

They should use Austin Maestros. Not sure there is a GT3 version though

https://youtu.be/tXlMbP-uQt4

Or how about BMW M1s? I guess the modern equivalent of that Procar series would be the Porsche Supercup. Without the F1 drivers though!

[Lancsbreaker]

The Times yesterday seemed to be indicating that the plans were for a single practice on the Friday, with qualifying for the Sprint race on Friday afternoon.


Sprint race on Saturday to be approx one third normal race distance, with the results of the Sprint race to determine the grid positions for Sunday's race, and some championship points for the first 8 in the Sprint race.


Supposedly to be trialled at 3 meetings this year, if teams sign up to it.

[broadrun96]

I don't think I like the points AND positions from the sprint race. No problem with a sprint championship within the season, don't offer the sprint race at every race meeting. But I'm sure they will come up with something stupid and it will annoy more people than it should.

[Casper]

It could be a really good thing if they are allowed to run unlimited fuel flow and engine mapping as well and the tyres last the whole race when the driver is actually hanging it all out in a real sprint race but that won't happen. They should also make energy harvesting and use unlimited as well and see who can actually RACE 9/10 for the whole time. A sprint race should be just that, a no holds barred race.

What will happen when one of the stars totals a car and it can't be repaired in time or he finishes up injured and can't compete the next day.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Casper

What will happen when one of the stars totals a car and it can't be repaired in time or he finishes up injured and can't compete the next day.

Well raised reservations but I think these days teams have become quite good at turning a pile of junk into a sparkling new steed in fairly short time.

With reserve drivers being urged to attend events by their teams anyway (standing by to sub for Covid positive regulars) there will already be someone ready to jump in.

[bathurst77]

im still concerned that if they parc ferme the cars after the sprint, so the chassis and aero set up engine mapping and even tyres you run in the sprint is how you start the main race.
Will we see all the cars jamming into the pits near the end of the sprint to get new tyres and sunday set up screwed on.

18 laps of sprint, followed by pitlane traffic jam and fastest pit competition, then 2-3 lap balls to the walls sprint to the flag to scrub the tyres and get a grid spot

actually that sounds rather fun!

then theres strategy, as far as saturday vs sunday points .. it really does add a dimension. pit late on saturday race Or stay out to get saturday points and best grid position, then pitting really early in the main event for tyres and set up changes.

I wasnt in favour but now im warming to it for a handful of races, less than half.
but im dead against reverse grid, your grid position is earned by how good you and your team are, not by a coin toss - leave that stuff for the weekend amateur clubby "fun racers".

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by bathurst77

im still concerned that if they parc ferme the cars after the sprint, so the chassis and aero set up engine mapping and even tyres you run in the sprint is how you start the main race.
Will we see all the cars jamming into the pits near the end of the sprint to get new tyres and sunday set up screwed on.

18 laps of sprint, followed by pitlane traffic jam and fastest pit competition, then 2-3 lap balls to the walls sprint to the flag to scrub the tyres and get a grid spot

actually that sounds rather fun!

😅😅 yes that sounds mega!!

[chillibowl]

while i have been an advocate of playing around with the format, i would have a problem with a sprint race not being able to give us quali tires, low fuel, clean air, fastest lap that can be done by that car.

but as long as F1 bury that experience within Q2, rather in the middle of the hour instead of at the end of it, then qualifying as a whole, for me at least, is going to feel anti climactic which will naturally lead me to want to see alternatives.

like bathurst77, i also enjoy the strategy compromise between saturday and sunday but i also need to see a fast car go as fast as it can go.

im not sure if all of those 'asks' can be fit together?

[Casper]

There is no way that Grosjean or his car was going to race the next day. Perhaps they need to re-introduce T cars because I can't see a true sprint race happening any other way due to the drivers trying not to bin it at the front of the field and those at the back causing mayhem trying to climb through the field. I am all for it if they can actually have a no holds barred SPRINT race....bring it on I say and let the panels fly, let's see some true knock down, drag out sprint racing.

Originally Posted by chunterer

Well raised reservations but I think these days teams have become quite good at turning a pile of junk into a sparkling new steed in fairly short time.

With reserve drivers being urged to attend events by their teams anyway (standing by to sub for Covid positive regulars) there will already be someone ready to jump in.

[Tourer]

Maybe they're actually thinking of using Sprint Cars for the sprint races? Scrape out a dirt oval at each Grand Prix venue and "let's go racing boys"!

640 odd Kg, 900 Bhp - methanol V8s at 9,000 rpm could provide the yin to the current F1 cars' yang?

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Casper

There is no way that Grosjean or his car was going to race the next day. Perhaps they need to re-introduce T cars because I can't see a true sprint race happening any other way due to the drivers trying not to bin it at the front of the field and those at the back causing mayhem trying to climb through the field. I am all for it if they can actually have a no holds barred SPRINT race....bring it on I say and let the panels fly, let's see some true knock down, drag out sprint racing.

Car was no problem as spare easily built up from sub-assemblies, but I’m not sure rules allow reserve driver to start without qualifying anyway. So what’s different to someone being ruled out after qualifying before now?

[dsg]

Originally Posted by Casper

There is no way that Grosjean or his car was going to race the next day.

I think HAAS has already resolved this issue.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Car was no problem as spare easily built up from sub-assemblies, but I’m not sure rules allow reserve driver to start without qualifying anyway. So what’s different to someone being ruled out after qualifying before now?

If drivers are precluded from the Sunday main event then the teams will throw their toys out of the pram and have a sulk and that will be the end of sprint racing which BTW won't be a true sprint race just a short warm up thing. The teams will all eventually come to the same recipe on how to best run the "sprint" race and normal order and operations will ensue from there.

[Akrapovic]

Are we over thinking this again? Are we inventing issues that don't really exist? There are so many series that already race multiple times a weekend. Why is this a problem for F1 but not IndyCar, BTCC, GTWC, etc?

[BTCC frog]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Are we over thinking this again? Are we inventing issues that don't really exist? There are so many series that already race multiple times a weekend. Why is this a problem for F1 but not IndyCar, BTCC, GTWC, etc?

Because F1 is just pure, simple Grand Prix racing, and should not be messed around with. Those other series you mentioned are maybe more about entertainment, but F1 should be pure motor racing.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by BTCC frog

Because F1 is just pure, simple Grand Prix racing, and should not be messed around with. Those other series you mentioned are maybe more about entertainment, but F1 should be pure motor racing.

Ok but I didn't say anything about F1 being more or less pure. Sorry, should've said. I'm talking about the purely practical response "what if someone crashes and can't race" thing that keeps getting said. Well, it isn't a problem elsewhere. So why is it a problem for F1?

I mean, I don't really think F1 should do it. But "they might crash" is not really a good reason for not doing it.

[BTCC frog]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Ok but I didn't say anything about F1 being more or less pure. Sorry, should've said. I'm talking about the purely practical response "what if someone crashes and can't race" thing that keeps getting said. Well, it isn't a problem elsewhere. So why is it a problem for F1?

I mean, I don't really think F1 should do it. But "they might crash" is not really a good reason for not doing it.

Oh, ok. I agree with you there. And whenever drivers crash in qualifying, the car almost always gets repaired in time, so the sprint race would be no different.

[coppice]

Oh , it will get the casual viewers tempted not to click their remote controls as their ant like attention span wanes. In the grown up enthusiast world where most of us live , we will have to tolerate another daft gimmick to court a fickle audience . So our sport will dumb itself down - yet again- to compete with such cultural gems as Strictly Come Dancing and Bargain Hunt .