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8 Apr 2021, 16:15 (Ref:4045134) | #101 | ||
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8 Apr 2021, 16:35 (Ref:4045143) | #102 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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I can totally understand that - and see where you are coming from. It's obviously difficult under current F1 circumstances, because the best car in the field has appeared obvious. Maybe if Red Bull can consistently be the fastest car this season, but Hamilton takes a title it will see his standing rise? I did also ponder how 'dominant' Hamilton's cars have been, and so I took a look at a comparison of Hamilton's first 10 seasons compared to Senna's - and particularly their respective team-mates as a guide to how much was car and how much was driver.
Which suggest to me; if Hamilton is to be more consistently considered the GOAT he needs his team-mate to start finishing 3rd or lower in the WDC? |
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8 Apr 2021, 16:37 (Ref:4045145) | #103 | |||
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Hypothetical extreme - if Hamilton moved to Alpine next season and was able to take the WDC, whilst his team-mate finished outside the top ten in every race, would he go up in your standing? |
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8 Apr 2021, 17:07 (Ref:4045157) | #104 | ||||
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Last edited by Aysedasi; 8 Apr 2021 at 17:14. |
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8 Apr 2021, 17:10 (Ref:4045158) | #105 | |||
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Yes Senna did something the others did not, and certainly not Prost, he made me dream. Far from perfect, not flawless, sometimes fragile but so human while always pushing hard. I cant imagine my son or daughter having a poster in his/her bedroom showing another driver than him. Before going further with the comparison, I'll wait for Hamilton to be retired. Just my opinion. |
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8 Apr 2021, 17:12 (Ref:4045159) | #106 | |
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That is a fascinating question, and one which I believe Hamilton himself should ask the F1 fans. I doubt he would ever say it, but I’m sure that for someone like Hamilton who has become the most successful driver of all time, the next step is to make sure you are considered by the majority of fans to be the Greatest of all Time. He often talks about wanting to promote human rights as the next step in his career, but he has his entire life to do that, and only a few years left to prove himself as the undisputed GOAT of Formula 1. If the twelve people who voted Senna (and all those who think someone else is the greatest, like Clark or Schumacher) as the GOAT all agree that the thing Hamilton needs to do is to perform heroics in an uncompetitive car, then I believe he should leave Mercedes (after winning his eighth title) and sign for someone like Williams to do just that.
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8 Apr 2021, 17:17 (Ref:4045160) | #107 | |||
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8 Apr 2021, 17:31 (Ref:4045165) | #108 | ||
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After hesitating between head or heart, I voted with the guts. I think the word is right.
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8 Apr 2021, 17:59 (Ref:4045176) | #109 | |||
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Just to clarify - I'm not saying that those who voted against Hamilton in any round are wrong - just trying to get an understanding of why. This bracket was spun out of conversation of Hamilton being a potential GOAT, and so I am interested in the reason for that to not be the case. Who knows - maybe the bracket (and GOAT discussion) is a snapshot in time. When Senna was in his prime, perhaps Fangio was the visceral GOAT? What is interesting is that in two brackets now, Senna has emerged victorious over the most successful driver of all time. |
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8 Apr 2021, 18:59 (Ref:4045191) | #110 | ||
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And there must be a reason, eh? After all, I didn't vote 12 times.......
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8 Apr 2021, 19:59 (Ref:4045211) | #111 | ||
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Celui qui est parti de rien pour arriver nulle part,n'a de merci a dire a personne.Pour ceux qui vont chercher midi a quatorze heures, la minute de Vérité risque de se faire attendre longtemps. |
8 Apr 2021, 21:08 (Ref:4045222) | #112 | ||
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8 Apr 2021, 21:39 (Ref:4045226) | #113 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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If Red Bull were to be dominant and Lewis still became WDC it would naturally increase his stock. However, it's not only the car's dominance but the team as well as they don't make many wrong calls. Your table of team mates' comparison is interesting but if you add the last 4 years to Lewis's table it makes the Mercedes' superiority even more marked. I can't say the suggestion (made by others) that he should change to an inferior team to prove his worth holds any merit. Why would he even contemplate it and is there any precedence? I agree with Ayse - I also didn't vote against Hamilton. |
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8 Apr 2021, 22:30 (Ref:4045235) | #114 | ||
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There are times when SLH had pulled off moves or wins that have made me think 'wow' but that hasn't happened for a while now.
I've always rated the drivers who pull off the unexpected or audacious passes or outdrive their car or an opponent in a better car on a regular basis more than championship titles. There are a select few pedallers who match that criteria imo. |
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9 Apr 2021, 01:02 (Ref:4045242) | #115 | ||
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9 Apr 2021, 01:03 (Ref:4045243) | #116 | |||
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9 Apr 2021, 02:08 (Ref:4045249) | #117 | ||
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Turkey was great. Silverstone on 3 wheels was a really good bit of driving.
If a driver has fewer wins, does that make their wins appear more unique/special while by contrast, make the driver with many more wins look formulaic/mundane? |
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9 Apr 2021, 02:12 (Ref:4045251) | #118 | ||
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That’s an interesting thought. Gilles, for instance, has a handful of victories, but some good ones in that.
So what we were saying is that Hamilton is diluting his legacy by winning too much |
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9 Apr 2021, 07:37 (Ref:4045262) | #119 | |||
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My interest has risen in F1 a bit more again only because of the potential that the likes of Max, Charles et al have of stopping one driver and team winning all the time. |
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9 Apr 2021, 11:30 (Ref:4045298) | #120 | |
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10 Apr 2021, 12:53 (Ref:4045439) | #121 | |||
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I think what I was looking for was more of an understanding of why, in a head-to-head, someone would opt for Cevert and Hulme instead of Hamilton? And when it comes to Senna, what would tip the balance to Hamilton? I've seen the comments in other sports, when 'great' performers are being considered. Sometimes it boils down to the fact that all you can do is beat those who you are up against. We see it in the DOTR votes regularly - comments along the lines of 'I can't vote for XXX because they were expected to win'. It almost comes across as the fact that we naturally support an underdog? |
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10 Apr 2021, 14:54 (Ref:4045449) | #122 | ||
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11 Apr 2021, 05:57 (Ref:4045497) | #123 | |||
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The example of François Cevert can lengthen the list of what ifs I fear. Hulme and Hamilton, in this case could and can thoroughly express themselves. Not Cevert who was respectfully waiting in the shade for Sir Jackie to retire. Hamilton can be the goat, Cevert could have been to some people's eyes. |
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11 Apr 2021, 07:28 (Ref:4045510) | #124 | |
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Usually the best drivers end up in the top seats anyway. But then there are those that end up in the right place at the wrong time (Amon/Gurney) or those that are killed or injured before their time (Cevert, Bellof, Kubica etc.), so it's not always the case
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8 Feb 2022, 21:13 (Ref:4097854) | #125 | ||
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As a follow-up, Top Gear has recently put out a list of 'The 10 best ever Formula 1 drivers'
The list is: Lewis Hamilton Juan Manuel Fangio Jim Clark Ayrton Senna Michael Schumacher Sir Jackie Stewart Sir Stirling Moss Alain Prost Niki Lauda Fernando Alonso As a reminder, the final eight here were - Senna, Hamilton, Prost, Schumacher, Clark, Moss, Fangio and Stewart. Alonso and Lauda went out in the third round - so the bracket agreed. |
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