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Old 8 Apr 2021, 16:15 (Ref:4045134)   #101
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Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post

For those who voted Senna as being greater than Hamilton - what would Hamilton have to do to move ahead of Senna in your opinion?
In all honesty, I can't think of any circumstances in which this would happen.
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Old 8 Apr 2021, 16:35 (Ref:4045143)   #102
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Originally Posted by morninggents View Post
I voted Senna. He achieved his position in a multitude of teams which were not necessarily dominant.
Hamilton is a great driver but for the last 7 years or more has been in F1's dominant car and generally has only had his teammate to beat.
So - from what you have explained - it is the standard of car being driven that contributes to the 'greatness'?

I can totally understand that - and see where you are coming from. It's obviously difficult under current F1 circumstances, because the best car in the field has appeared obvious. Maybe if Red Bull can consistently be the fastest car this season, but Hamilton takes a title it will see his standing rise?

I did also ponder how 'dominant' Hamilton's cars have been, and so I took a look at a comparison of Hamilton's first 10 seasons compared to Senna's - and particularly their respective team-mates as a guide to how much was car and how much was driver.
     
SeasonSennaTeam-mate(s)HamiltonTeam-mate(s)
113pts-9th3pts-16th109pts-2nd109pts-3rd
238pts-4th33pts-5th98pts-1st53pts-7th
355pts-4th3pts-13th49pts-5th22pts-12th
457pts-3rd7pts-12th240pts-4th214pts-5th
590pts-1st87pts-2nd227pts-5th270pts-2nd
660pts-2nd76pts-1st190pts-4th188pts-5th
778pts-1st43pts-4th189pts-4th171pts-6th
896pts-1st43pts-4th384pts-1st317pts-2nd
950pts-4th49pts-5th381pts-1st322pts-2nd
1073pts-2nd11pts-9th380pts-2nd385pts-1st

Which suggest to me; if Hamilton is to be more consistently considered the GOAT he needs his team-mate to start finishing 3rd or lower in the WDC?
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Old 8 Apr 2021, 16:37 (Ref:4045145)   #103
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Originally Posted by Aysedasi View Post
In all honesty, I can't think of any circumstances in which this would happen.
I appreciate that may be the case - but there must have been something that Senna did to elevate him above others in your opinion. Is it right to suggest that Hamilton will never be able to do that 'something' even better?

Hypothetical extreme - if Hamilton moved to Alpine next season and was able to take the WDC, whilst his team-mate finished outside the top ten in every race, would he go up in your standing?
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Old 8 Apr 2021, 17:07 (Ref:4045157)   #104
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I appreciate that may be the case - but there must have been something that Senna did to elevate him above others in your opinion. Is it right to suggest that Hamilton will never be able to do that 'something' even better?
Yes, that would be right - as far as I can tell right now. Senna was what I wanted to see in a racing driver, an insatiable will to win, blindingly fast, masterful in all conditions. As the well known quote goes, he went for any and every gap and never played the percentages game. He was a racer, not just a racing driver. But above that he had an enigmatic character (which you either loved or hated) and frankly I wanted to see him blitz the opposition every time he left the pits. For me, F1 has never been the same since Imola 1994. There are few things which stir the soul more for me than Senna on an ultra-quick lap in a red and white McLaren-Honda - the sound adds to it as well, which is something I miss badly these days.

Quote:
Hypothetical extreme - if Hamilton moved to Alpine next season and was able to take the WDC, whilst his team-mate finished outside the top ten in every race, would he go up in your standing?
Yes, for sure. He'd move a little bit closer. But it is difficult to see anyone providing (me) the excitement that Senna provided. Just watching a pole lap is enough to raise the hairs on the back of my neck - even now all those years later. These days it is so much more.... clinical. If anyone would be likely to get closer, it would probably be Max....

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Old 8 Apr 2021, 17:10 (Ref:4045158)   #105
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I appreciate that may be the case - but there must have been something that Senna did to elevate him above others in your opinion. Is it right to suggest that Hamilton will never be able to do that 'something' even better?
I know your question is not for me but I'd like to try and give my answer if you allow.

Yes Senna did something the others did not, and certainly not Prost, he made me dream. Far from perfect, not flawless, sometimes fragile but so human while always pushing hard.
I cant imagine my son or daughter having a poster in his/her bedroom showing another driver than him.

Before going further with the comparison, I'll wait for Hamilton to be retired. Just my opinion.
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Old 8 Apr 2021, 17:12 (Ref:4045159)   #106
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For those who voted Senna as being greater than Hamilton - what would Hamilton have to do to move ahead of Senna in your opinion?
That is a fascinating question, and one which I believe Hamilton himself should ask the F1 fans. I doubt he would ever say it, but I’m sure that for someone like Hamilton who has become the most successful driver of all time, the next step is to make sure you are considered by the majority of fans to be the Greatest of all Time. He often talks about wanting to promote human rights as the next step in his career, but he has his entire life to do that, and only a few years left to prove himself as the undisputed GOAT of Formula 1. If the twelve people who voted Senna (and all those who think someone else is the greatest, like Clark or Schumacher) as the GOAT all agree that the thing Hamilton needs to do is to perform heroics in an uncompetitive car, then I believe he should leave Mercedes (after winning his eighth title) and sign for someone like Williams to do just that.
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Old 8 Apr 2021, 17:17 (Ref:4045160)   #107
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If the twelve people who voted Senna (and all those who think someone else is the greatest, like Clark or Schumacher) as the GOAT all agree that the thing Hamilton needs to do is to perform heroics in an uncompetitive car, then I believe he should leave Mercedes (after winning his eighth title) and sign for someone like Williams to do just that.
As one of the 12, it wasn't just that for me. In fact, performing in an uncompetitive car wasn't one of my criteria. For me, the feeling is far more.... visceral.... (if that's the right word). Does Hamilton excite me in an F1 car in the way that Senna did? No. But that's not really his fault.
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Old 8 Apr 2021, 17:31 (Ref:4045165)   #108
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After hesitating between head or heart, I voted with the guts. I think the word is right.
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Old 8 Apr 2021, 17:59 (Ref:4045176)   #109
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As one of the 12, it wasn't just that for me. In fact, performing in an uncompetitive car wasn't one of my criteria. For me, the feeling is far more.... visceral.... (if that's the right word). Does Hamilton excite me in an F1 car in the way that Senna did? No. But that's not really his fault.
I think visceral is exactly the right word for it.

Just to clarify - I'm not saying that those who voted against Hamilton in any round are wrong - just trying to get an understanding of why. This bracket was spun out of conversation of Hamilton being a potential GOAT, and so I am interested in the reason for that to not be the case.

Who knows - maybe the bracket (and GOAT discussion) is a snapshot in time.
When Senna was in his prime, perhaps Fangio was the visceral GOAT? What is interesting is that in two brackets now, Senna has emerged victorious over the most successful driver of all time.
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Old 8 Apr 2021, 18:59 (Ref:4045191)   #110
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And there must be a reason, eh? After all, I didn't vote 12 times.......
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Old 8 Apr 2021, 19:59 (Ref:4045211)   #111
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Just to clarify - I'm not saying that those who voted against Hamilton in any round are wrong - just trying to get an understanding of why.
Are you sure that voting for Senna means obviously you vote against another? And vice versa. Hamilton or anyone…
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Old 8 Apr 2021, 21:08 (Ref:4045222)   #112
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Are you sure that voting for Senna means obviously you vote against another? And vice versa. Hamilton or anyone…
Well said. I didn't vote against Hamilton, I voted for Senna.
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Old 8 Apr 2021, 21:39 (Ref:4045226)   #113
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So - from what you have explained - it is the standard of car being driven that contributes to the 'greatness'?

I can totally understand that - and see where you are coming from. It's obviously difficult under current F1 circumstances, because the best car in the field has appeared obvious. Maybe if Red Bull can consistently be the fastest car this season, but Hamilton takes a title it will see his standing rise?

I did also ponder how 'dominant' Hamilton's cars have been, and so I took a look at a comparison of Hamilton's first 10 seasons compared to Senna's - and particularly their respective team-mates as a guide to how much was car and how much was driver.
     
SeasonSennaTeam-mate(s)HamiltonTeam-mate(s)
113pts-9th3pts-16th109pts-2nd109pts-3rd
238pts-4th33pts-5th98pts-1st53pts-7th
355pts-4th3pts-13th49pts-5th22pts-12th
457pts-3rd7pts-12th240pts-4th214pts-5th
590pts-1st87pts-2nd227pts-5th270pts-2nd
660pts-2nd76pts-1st190pts-4th188pts-5th
778pts-1st43pts-4th189pts-4th171pts-6th
896pts-1st43pts-4th384pts-1st317pts-2nd
950pts-4th49pts-5th381pts-1st322pts-2nd
1073pts-2nd11pts-9th380pts-2nd385pts-1st
Which suggest to me; if Hamilton is to be more consistently considered the GOAT he needs his team-mate to start finishing 3rd or lower in the WDC?

If Red Bull were to be dominant and Lewis still became WDC it would naturally increase his stock. However, it's not only the car's dominance but the team as well as they don't make many wrong calls.


Your table of team mates' comparison is interesting but if you add the last 4 years to Lewis's table it makes the Mercedes' superiority even more marked.


I can't say the suggestion (made by others) that he should change to an inferior team to prove his worth holds any merit. Why would he even contemplate it and is there any precedence?

I agree with Ayse - I also didn't vote against Hamilton.
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Old 8 Apr 2021, 22:30 (Ref:4045235)   #114
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There are times when SLH had pulled off moves or wins that have made me think 'wow' but that hasn't happened for a while now.

I've always rated the drivers who pull off the unexpected or audacious passes or outdrive their car or an opponent in a better car on a regular basis more than championship titles.

There are a select few pedallers who match that criteria imo.
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Old 9 Apr 2021, 01:02 (Ref:4045242)   #115
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And there must be a reason, eh? After all, I didn't vote 12 times.......
Me too.
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Old 9 Apr 2021, 01:03 (Ref:4045243)   #116
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There are times when SLH had pulled off moves or wins that have made me think 'wow' but that hasn't happened for a while now.

I've always rated the drivers who pull off the unexpected or audacious passes or outdrive their car or an opponent in a better car on a regular basis more than championship titles.

There are a select few pedallers who match that criteria imo.
Last victory that really impressed me was Turkey last year. Not that I think more recent wins were worthless, but we are talking top drawer here.
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Old 9 Apr 2021, 02:08 (Ref:4045249)   #117
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Turkey was great. Silverstone on 3 wheels was a really good bit of driving.

If a driver has fewer wins, does that make their wins appear more unique/special while by contrast, make the driver with many more wins look formulaic/mundane?
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Old 9 Apr 2021, 02:12 (Ref:4045251)   #118
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That’s an interesting thought. Gilles, for instance, has a handful of victories, but some good ones in that.

So what we were saying is that Hamilton is diluting his legacy by winning too much
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Old 9 Apr 2021, 07:37 (Ref:4045262)   #119
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That’s an interesting thought. Gilles, for instance, has a handful of victories, but some good ones in that.

So what we were saying is that Hamilton is diluting his legacy by winning too much
Well there maybe truth in that!

My interest has risen in F1 a bit more again only because of the potential that the likes of Max, Charles et al have of stopping one driver and team winning all the time.
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Old 9 Apr 2021, 11:30 (Ref:4045298)   #120
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Well there maybe truth in that!

My interest has risen in F1 a bit more again only because of the potential that the likes of Max, Charles et al have of stopping one driver and team winning all the time.

Looks like you might just get your wish Max this year
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Old 10 Apr 2021, 12:53 (Ref:4045439)   #121
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Are you sure that voting for Senna means obviously you vote against another? And vice versa. Hamilton or anyone…
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Well said. I didn't vote against Hamilton, I voted for Senna.
Maybe my use of the word 'against' was incorrect - or implied a negative connotation which was not the intention.

I think what I was looking for was more of an understanding of why, in a head-to-head, someone would opt for Cevert and Hulme instead of Hamilton?
And when it comes to Senna, what would tip the balance to Hamilton?

I've seen the comments in other sports, when 'great' performers are being considered. Sometimes it boils down to the fact that all you can do is beat those who you are up against. We see it in the DOTR votes regularly - comments along the lines of 'I can't vote for XXX because they were expected to win'. It almost comes across as the fact that we naturally support an underdog?
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Old 10 Apr 2021, 14:54 (Ref:4045449)   #122
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I think what I was looking for was more of an understanding of why, in a head-to-head, someone would opt for Cevert and Hulme instead of Hamilton?
As to these two pairings, I suggest that they were votes against Hamilton.
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Old 11 Apr 2021, 05:57 (Ref:4045497)   #123
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Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
It almost comes across as the fact that we naturally support an underdog?
For some votants you're probably right not forgetting that some will see a good opportunity to do justice to a driver or player, injured, deceased or as you say underrated. What we call in french "refaire le match" ou "refaire le match après le match", talking about foot-ball/soccer.

The example of François Cevert can lengthen the list of what ifs I fear. Hulme and Hamilton, in this case could and can thoroughly express themselves. Not Cevert who was respectfully waiting in the shade for Sir Jackie to retire. Hamilton can be the goat, Cevert could have been to some people's eyes.
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Old 11 Apr 2021, 07:28 (Ref:4045510)   #124
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Usually the best drivers end up in the top seats anyway. But then there are those that end up in the right place at the wrong time (Amon/Gurney) or those that are killed or injured before their time (Cevert, Bellof, Kubica etc.), so it's not always the case
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Old 8 Feb 2022, 21:13 (Ref:4097854)   #125
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As a follow-up, Top Gear has recently put out a list of 'The 10 best ever Formula 1 drivers'

The list is:

Lewis Hamilton
Juan Manuel Fangio
Jim Clark
Ayrton Senna
Michael Schumacher
Sir Jackie Stewart
Sir Stirling Moss
Alain Prost
Niki Lauda
Fernando Alonso

As a reminder, the final eight here were - Senna, Hamilton, Prost, Schumacher, Clark, Moss, Fangio and Stewart. Alonso and Lauda went out in the third round - so the bracket agreed.
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