Supercars Gen 3 (2022)

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by Casper

The best option may be to go back to the last Commodore/Falcon and call it done. The Camaro in Oz is about as relevant as the Commodore/Falcon because none are now available.

Yet people are happy to watch GT cars that are not relevant or available either. Because it doesn't matter.

This is what the Brazil series did anyway, just stuck with their cars when manufacturers left, and it is a strong and colourful series.

The difference with Camaro and Mustang is that it is aspirational. We don't buy them because the are less practical for example but we still desire them, so watching them race is interesting. And we still have red vs blue tribalism past the demise of Holden and Ford manufacturing.

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[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Obviously the current formula can still work, but can the cars be replaced

Is that a question or a statement?

[Compromised]

Originally Posted by Mixer

Yet people are happy to watch GT cars that are not relevant or available either. Because it doesn't matter.

This is what the Brazil series did anyway, just stuck with their cars when manufacturers left, and it is a strong and colourful series.

The difference with Camaro and Mustang is that it is aspirational. We don't buy them because the are less practical for example but we still desire them, so watching them race is interesting. And we still have red vs blue tribalism past the demise of Holden and Ford manufacturing.

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I'm struggling to see why anyone would advocate for basing the race cars around road going models - it only adds cost, complexity and heartache.

What used to make it worthwhile (road relevance, sales etc) apparently doesn't matter anymore, so we've got all the cons with none of the (old) pros.

Though I understand this kind of asinine logic is part of Supercars DNA, perhaps a simpler approach is required?

Get the brain trust to design 3 race car bodies - let the fans pick one and let's go racing. One engine. One body shape. World class drivers and teams. Excellent tv production. CHEAPER!!!

[GTRMagic]

What would people complain about when 888 *still* win everything?

[Compromised]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

What would people complain about when 888 *still* win everything?

Fair, but at least no one could say the P word in a "single make" series

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by Compromised

Fair, but at least no one could say the P word in a "single make" series

You want to bet?

Those conspirational morons lost their **** when KRE tested a TA2 car with a GT driver on board and using 888s truck and spanners.

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[E.B]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

What would people complain about when 888 *still* win everything?

Those of us that say car parity is not the problem, its just some teams are better at the game than others, will surely be vindicated.....

I guess the only thing guaranteed is people will still complain regardless. They will find something. The 'conspiracy stores' are now open for business as usual. No lockdown there.

[Matt K]

Personally, I wouldn't like to see Supercars go for a one model system, two manufacturers isn't much but it's still better than one. Also, I agree with statements that cars don't have to be super-relevant. Camaro and Mustang are more relevant than old Commodore and Falcon because at least you can buy them and see them in showrooms. They aren't popular, they don't sell well but they're good-looking, aggressive and desirable.

If Supercars is to gain more manufacturers, I believe it's important to stop relying on big involvement from manufacturers - BTCC shows you can still have a lot of brands with almost zero involvement from manufacturers and in current world of declining carmakers interest this seems to be the way to go. I think Chevrolet's involvement is Supercars is going to be a bit like that.

Also, if Camaro and Mustang lose their relevance and V8 coupes are no longer the way forward, it doesn't have to mean drastic solutions such as switch to GT3 cars. If Supercars still have the similar DNA, they can be coupes/hatchbacks/saloons with V8/V6/Hybrid. No one said Supercars will always have to be about coupes and V8 engines.

[S griffin]

That's what I worry about. When the current models' time runs out, are there any models in the line that can replace them?

[Sandgroper]

Originally Posted by Mixer

Yet people are happy to watch GT cars that are not relevant or available either. Because it doesn't matter.

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Are they ?????

Had the choice of the current Supercar Series or GT Cars Im sure 90% of us still want the so called Holden v Ford Battle with a GT car the ugly sister IMHO

[Sandgroper]

Originally Posted by Compromised

Fair, but at least no one could say the P word in a "single make" series

SOMEONE would

[Compromised]

Originally Posted by S griffin

That's what I worry about. When the current models' time runs out, are there any models in the line that can replace them?

Probably not. The writing is on the wall for the type of cars Supercars would usually race. That's why it's so important to decouple the series from what happens in the car industry. AI control, electric, hydrogen etc no one quite knows what the car industry is going to look like and that kind of uncertainty isn't helping the series long term.

Supercars should dictate terms. This is our RACE CAR. Yes, it has a V8. No, it doesn't look like dad's Ranger or mums I30.

[Just Do It!]

Originally Posted by E.B

The 'conspiracy stores' are now open for business as usual. No lockdown there.

You can always shop online at the "conspiracy stores" - Facebook, Twitter, Reddit......etc

[one five five]

Originally Posted by Compromised

Supercars should dictate terms. This is our RACE CAR. Yes, it has a V8. No, it doesn't look like dad's Ranger or mums I30.

Not really touring car racing then though is it?

[Compromised]

Originally Posted by one five five

Not really touring car racing then though is it?

Hasn't been since COTF.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by Compromised

Supercars should dictate terms. This is our RACE CAR. Yes, it has a V8. No, it doesn't look like dad's Ranger or mums I30.

Perfect to go downhill.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

Perfect to go downhill.

Do you mean Conrod? Yes the V8 works well there and even better going up the hill.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Mixer

Yet people are happy to watch GT cars that are not relevant or available either. Because it doesn't matter.

The GT cars represent brands like Audi, BMW and Mercedes that people actually care about, are enthusiastic about and want to own...

Originally Posted by Sandgroper

Are they ?????

Had the choice of the current Supercar Series or GT Cars Im sure 90% of us still want the so called Holden v Ford Battle

You can't be serious!

The Nurburgring 24 hour is thrilling. An Australian GT championship at the same professional level would be equally thrilling.

To the vast majority of auto enthusiasts, Americana is irrelevant. Unless you get a Shelby GT350, the Mustang doesn't even handle properly -- it has severe roll, pitch and dive in the regular Mustang GT (almost as if it is only designed for comfortable cruising on highways and hence specified with excessively soft suspension ).

It makes absolutely no sense for the Australian Touring Car Championship to be an Americana series based on pony cars from Detroit (that aren't even very common in Australian cities), when sporty AMGs, RS cars and M-cars are far, far more common, especially downtown. Companies like BMW Motorsport, Mazda Motorsport and Nismo were heavily involved in the ATCC, until they were inexplicably told to go away...

The ATCC is very much increasingly a minor interest -- action should be taken to correct this.

Originally Posted by Casper

Do you mean Conrod? Yes the V8 works well there and even better going up the hill.

But V12s are better?

The Alfa Romeo 8C is certainly a lovely example of a V8 though, and of course the Ferrari 458 Italia and most other V8-series Ferraris are wonderful -- really any naturally aspirated V8 Ferrari is a joy.

The problem is, though, if you are an Alfa Romeo / Ferrari / FIAT enthusiast, why would you even watch the ATCC? There is nothing there to interest you. Bondy's mighty GTVs are but a distant memory.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Compromised

Supercars should dictate terms. This is our RACE CAR. Yes, it has a V8. No, it doesn't look like dad's Ranger or mums I30.

The proposed LS and Coyote are unlikely to even sound like a V8 anyway. A V8 is supposed to sound like this: Ferrari 458 Novitec

If it must be "V8" Supercars, they ought to do something about this... The Mercedes and Volvo were a step in the right direction, but now they are gone.

As I said, Americana is going to do very little to interest people. The Adelaide 500 is gone, the Sydney 500 is gone, the Hamilton 400 is gone, the Surfer's Paradise race may never come back... The ATCC will continue to lose all of its 'glamorous' street races as the championship's status continues to decline...

Something must be done to arrest the slide from major interest sport to minor interest sport!

Digging in heels with a commitment to Michigan automotive brands seems a very poor idea IMO. Most people are far more interested in firstly, the German prestige brands, and secondly brands like Toyota Gazoo Racing, Nissan Nismo and so forth. [Tesla is an extremely popular and desirable brand too for that matter!]

[TWRv12]

888 test car sounds fine

[Casper]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

But V12s are better?

Funny story time, I was working for a Jag spare parts operation the first year that the V12's came out for Bathurst and everyone told me they would not last and Brock would win in the asthmatic V8 Commodore. I offered to put money on it but there were no takers which was good for those who thought the Jag would not go the distance.

[Casper]

This is how a V8 should sound, none of that namby pamby European stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBx2...el=BlendLineTV

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Casper

This is how a V8 should sound

Group A Commodores sounded a lot better than present ATCC racers as they screamed to 8500rpm+: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZwRblyLQ7o

The ridiculous Group 3A 7500rpm rev limit killed the sound.

Hopefully the proper rpm range will be restored at least under Gen 3. 9000rpm would be a good place to set the rev limit, it raises the entire rpm band which the engine operates at -- drastically improving the sound as Group A showed.

none of that namby pamby European stuff.

As you can hear, the Group A Commodores sounded pretty much the same as a Maserati -- until they were strangled by a ridiculously low rev limit.

Originally Posted by Casper

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBx2...el=BlendLineTV

The actual HDT VK Group A race cars didn't sound anything like that? That sounds like an entry-grade engine without the robust valve springs, oil pump etc to handle 8500 rpm.

[Casper]

Oil gallery and scavenge design or re-design was what got the 8500 RPM. I still reckon the low level RPM Australian 308 motors sounded best. The Jaguar motor is OK also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8Fx...annel=PDriveTV

[S griffin]

It was a move in the right direction 8500 rpm. I think they don't need to necessarily change that. Keep it as it is while keeping an eye on the costs