Driving standards/ stewarding

[S griffin]

Exactly, there's a big difference between two drivers going side by side into a corner and neither giving in and a driver just pushing someone off from behind

[bathurst77]

I keep hearing a call for consistency race to race
Whats ignored one weekend gets a penalty the next

But I believe they have different stewards or driver overseer or whatever he is called so its natural there will be different calls. If they want consistency they will need the same judges at all races

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by bathurst77

I keep hearing a call for consistency race to race
Whats ignored one weekend gets a penalty the next

But I believe they have different stewards or driver overseer or whatever he is called so its natural there will be different calls. If they want consistency they will need the same judges at all races

They had that in 2006-07, then ditched that idea for some reason

[greentrumpet]

However F1 might be fixed, it won't be by fudges like Spa 2021.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by greentrumpet

However F1 might be fixed, it won't be by fudges like Spa 2021.

Not sure that had anything to do with driving standards or stewarding though.....

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Not sure that had anything to do with driving standards or stewarding though.....

Sounds like he's getting confused with the 'How to Fix F1' thread

[Taxi645]

Does Lando have a driving standards problem?


https://www.racefans.net/2021/09/05/norris-perez-passed-me-because-contact-knocked-my-foot-off-throttle/

I can’t look in my mirror the whole way around the corner, so a bit of it has to be done on judgement and expectation of him respecting, him knowing I’m not going to make his life easy, me knowing he’s going to try and go around the outside. I think I left him enough [room]. I need to look from an onboard and stuff.

“But of course I’m going to come on throttle and try and squeeze him and not make his life easy. But it’s only that, I’m not going to try and make contact or try and force him off or anything.

“The last time I did, I got a penalty. I’m not stupid, I’m not silly, but I’m not going to let him past either.”


It's the 3rd time he doesn't leave Perez room on track. In his wording Perez needed to respect he was not going to make it easy on him. Apperently that means not making sure there's enough room for the other driver and the other driver having to back out to prevent a collision. He says he's learned from the previous penalty, but it doesn't seem so by his wording and action.

BTW, as somebody mentions in the comments, the FIA says it doesn't consider consequences of penalties when considering penalties. That doesn't seem completely true considering they almost never apply penalties if the other car can continue without much delay. Not saying they should or not, just an observation in that comment section I agree with.

[S griffin]

Perez passed others there on the outside without problems. The incident with Norris reminded me of the infamous Hunt/Andretti collision at that corner in 77.

[S griffin]

Anyway I think the worst behaviour goes once again to Mazepin. His chopping down the straight was bad enough, but to do it to his own team mate really makes me worry. You know I thought he was turning a corner in recent races, then he reminds people why some have trouble accepting him in F1. His comments after qualifying really make me worry about his state of mind

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Anyway I think the worst behaviour goes once again to Mazepin. His chopping down the straight was bad enough, but to do it to his own team mate really makes me worry. You know I thought he was turning a corner in recent races, then he reminds people why some have trouble accepting him in F1. His comments after qualifying really make me worry about his state of mind

There's quite a few four-letter descriptors for Mazepin that are accurate, not many of which can bypass the content filter on Ten-Tenths

[Adam43]

We could add Mazepin to the filter?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Skam85

There's quite a few four-letter descriptors for Mazepin that are accurate, not many of which can bypass the content filter on Ten-Tenths

Agreed, and yet the stewards seem to just ignore his behaviour.

[greentrumpet]

Can't really drop him too many places down the grid and without his roubles Haas might be in troubles The FIA don't want a smaller grid.

[Taxi645]

I think penalties should be more severe. Handing them out is bad PR, so if you do hand them out, better make sure the driver keeps that in mind the next time he considers being naughty. The amount given now often does not do justice to the loosing party and it's hardly a detterent for future behaviour while you still get the bad publicity.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

I think penalties should be more severe. Handing them out is bad PR, so if you do hand them out, better make sure the driver keeps that in mind the next time he considers being naughty. The amount given now often does not do justice to the loosing party and it's hardly a detterent for future behaviour while you still get the bad publicity.

The problem with that idea is that the system is a discipline system, not a punitive one. The purpose is to carry out some figurative justice and that some form of discipline is carried out on people who create a collision which has a negative effect on others. You cant give places. points and trophies to those negatively affected but you can act in a way that demonstrates some form of justice.

Handing out harsh punitive penalties is counter productive.
the object of a disciplinary system is to change behavior and build responsive respect between drivers, and improve driving standards, not to hurt people or destroy careers.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

The problem with that idea is that the system is a discipline system, not a punitive one. The purpose is to carry out some figurative justice and that some form of discipline is carried out on people who create a collision which has a negative effect on others. You cant give places. points and trophies to those negatively affected but you can act in a way that demonstrates some form of justice.

Handing out harsh punitive penalties is counter productive.
the object of a disciplinary system is to change behavior and build responsive respect between drivers, and improve driving standards, not to hurt people or destroy careers.

They need consistently enforced rules of engagement though, and they fail miserably.

[Adam43]

They’ve been quite consistent. I’d almost go so far to say that this has been the problem!

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Adam43

They’ve been quite consistent. I’d almost go so far to say that this has been the problem!

I think they are being more consistent too.
The problem seems to be that people who disagree think they are not being consistent because they don't agree with their decisions or cant get their head around the reasons for their decisions.

I don't agree with all their judicial decisions but I understand their reasoning in most of the cases. Like about 95% of them.
And the vast majority follow the principles under which most motorsport judicial systems are founded.
So they aren't at odds with the founding principles and motivation behind the judicial system.

Some people would try to replace them with a system that would be very legalistic and create more injustice in the system than presently exists.
This would defeat the basic purpose for the system.
I've seen the consequences of fixed penalty/rule processing concept destroy a section of motorsport from the inside out by people who thought they knew better.

[chillibowl]

im loving your posts these days Teretonga!

Originally Posted by Teretonga

I don't agree with all their judicial decisions but I understand their reasoning in most of the cases. Like about 95% of them.

this is a key statement!

[S griffin]

I think it’s important the stewards decision is explained, then we can always get some understanding of it, even if we don’t always agree. So I’m grateful the stewards do that, instead of just assuming us all to be mind readers. Mind you, I do feel ‘racing incidents’ are starting to become a thing of a past and there will be a blame game with every incident, no matter how minor

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I think it’s important the stewards decision is explained, then we can always get some understanding of it, even if we don’t always agree. So I’m grateful the stewards do that, instead of just assuming us all to be mind readers. Mind you, I do feel ‘racing incidents’ are starting to become a thing of a past and there will be a blame game with every incident, no matter how minor

That has a lot to do with social culture, more so than with the sport itself.
Social media, the ability to become a keyboard warrior, the access to video replays from a variety of angles, and the idea that my opinion counts, so I should speak up or say something and maybe someone will listen

All of that contributes to the idea that someone is to blame for what happened so there should be a punishment or a discipline for what happened. Nothing is really a simple 'accident' any more.

In such a world its not surprising that "Justice has to be seen to be done" or its unjust.
In any sporting situation that's why people all have opinions and views about things.
Do I agree with every rugby referee's decisions?
No.
That's why I call out and shout at the TV.
Why can't he hear me?

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

All of that contributes to the idea that someone is to blame for what happened so there should be a punishment or a discipline for what happened. Nothing is really a simple 'accident' any more.

Yep. Been saying this for a long time now and the way that the media (TV and social) pick over every stumble, bump and crash now will only make it worse, as long as the stewards continue with the same policy.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

All of that contributes to the idea that someone is to blame for what happened so there should be a punishment or a discipline for what happened. Nothing is really a simple 'accident' any more.

In such a world its not surprising that "Justice has to be seen to be done" or its unjust.

I wonder if part of this is due to the regulation changes backing them into a corner on the matter.
Specifically, I am referring to the 2018 amendment to the ISC:

Causing a collision, Rrepetition of serious mistakes or the appearance of a lack of control over the car (such as leaving the track) will be reported to the Stewards and may entail the imposition of penalties up to and including the exclusion of any driver concerned.

From this date onward, any collision must be reported to the Stewards forcing them into making a judgement.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I wonder if part of this is due to the regulation changes backing them into a corner on the matter.
Specifically, I am referring to the 2018 amendment to the ISC:

Causing a collision, Rrepetition of serious mistakes or the appearance of a lack of control over the car (such as leaving the track) will be reported to the Stewards and may entail the imposition of penalties up to and including the exclusion of any driver concerned.

From this date onward, any collision must be reported to the Stewards forcing them into making a judgement.

That may be a part of it CR.
But I am also aware of incidents in years gone by in motor racing where a major incident occurred and because one person was well known or popular as a figure the incident (like a serious crash) was simply fobbed off as bad luck or a racing incident and 'justice' was not seen to be done. There was a particular incident in mind as long ago as 1968 where that happened.
Subsequent to that when Max Mosely was head of the FIA a lot of things changed. Being of a legal way of mind Max instituted a lot of change that people are not aware of in a multitude of areas and the effect was to change attitudes during the period of his influence.
Also social attitudes generally changed significantly regarding crime, intent, and accountability over a twenty year period. What we have now in the sport reflects the social attitudes.
You can see its effect in other sport particularly teams games.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

From this date onward, any collision must be reported to the Stewards forcing them into making a judgement.

But stewards still have the option to judge a collision to be an unfortunate racing incident. That's a judgement too.

How hard is it to imagine that two drivers can simultaneously make a split second decision unknowingly putting their cars on intersecting lines with neither driver being able to react in time to avoid a collision? If you haven't guessed, I'm describing the infamous incident at Copse, 2021 British GP. Both drivers had racing room, neither tried to cause a collision, but they, unfortunately, touched. The rest was down to luck.

Not to mention some incidents where rules are broken do go to stewards, who don't even bother with a judgement! We get the "no investigation necessary" thing.

So I'll disagree and say that it's not a dry little line in the rules that puts pressure on the stewards to come up with something. It's the immediate fallout after the incident that matters more than the rules: the outcry among the media, fans and involved teams. And it's directly proportional to how spectacular and important the incident is, rather than how gravely or deliberately the rules were broken. It has been the case since I can remember, but in the light of modern social media coverage it became so blatantly obvious that a few weeks ago F1 felt the need to officially deny this fact in a special statement.