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Old 14 Sep 2021, 12:57 (Ref:4073820)   #1681
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Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
This image also demonstrates the first time Verstappen was alongside enough to make the move legitimate.
I think he has a bit of oversteer at that point.
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Old 14 Sep 2021, 13:03 (Ref:4073821)   #1682
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Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
This image also demonstrates the first time Verstappen was alongside enough to make the move legitimate.

If you watch the footage, his car is launched forward, as his right rear tyre climbs up over Hamilton's left rear tyre. 2.27 sec.



https://youtu.be/JaPKqGO59T0
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Old 14 Sep 2021, 14:36 (Ref:4073847)   #1683
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Originally Posted by Teretonga View Post
Why?
Its not a part of the racing surface.
There is a line that is the edge of the racing surface.
Then a curb that is outside the racing surface but you are allowed to use by placing your inside wheels on it,
The sausage curb is then there to discourage people from crossing the real curb and short cutting the corner.
There are other bars there painted in stripes for the same reason.
There is also a clearly defined path inside the judders bars to enable people caught out or late braking to cross the chicane area without causing damage to the car and rejoining on the other side of the chicane.
But of course they can't get an advantage from it and must redress any place gained.

But its not dangerous UNLESS you try to overtake by going off the circuit and then you are at fault and the author of your own misfortune. You may also be the author of someone else's misfortune.
In that case you will get a penalty.
in the driving standard thread, i really liked the distinction you make about the discipline system and how punitive penalties can be counter productive.

for anyone who may have missed it:

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Originally Posted by Teretonga View Post
The problem with that idea is that the system is a discipline system, not a punitive one. The purpose is to carry out some figurative justice and that some form of discipline is carried out on people who create a collision which has a negative effect on others. You cant give places. points and trophies to those negatively affected but you can act in a way that demonstrates some form of justice.

Handing out harsh punitive penalties is counter productive.
the object of a disciplinary system is to change behavior and build responsive respect between drivers, and improve driving standards, not to hurt people or destroy careers.
so for sure i agree that Max knew what part of the track was coming up and risked going over these curbs...i dont question that part.

but going over these curbs at speed must be painful for the driver and surely pain cannot be used as a deterrent...particularly for something as common as breaking track limits. to me this is extremely punitive. likewise, the curbs destabilizing effect can result (as it did here) in one car losing control and hitting another car. so its not just a penalty/deterrent that affects the guilty party.

im not going to say i have the answer to how penalties/deterrents should be handed out (but i do agree that building responsive respect is key) but these curbs seems to be more problematic nor have they served to really deter negative behaviour as seen by Max' poor decision in trying to execute a move where his only way out option was also a potentially damaging one.

anyways, this is why F1 officiating is so hard as there always seems to be a new and unique incident that forces a rethink of all the rules.

Last edited by chillibowl; 14 Sep 2021 at 14:41.
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Old 14 Sep 2021, 16:19 (Ref:4073894)   #1684
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Originally Posted by Teretonga View Post
But its not dangerous UNLESS you try to overtake by going off the circuit and then you are at fault and the author of your own misfortune. You may also be the author of someone else's misfortune.
In that case you will get a penalty.
Or unless you're forced there by another car, or if you make a mistake and lose control and end up there, or if something on the car fails and.... etc. etc.
There's a reason they don't allow trees to be growing OUTSIDE racing surface anymore.

There's always a fine balance between deterring drivers from gaining advantage off the track and safety. I'm not saying sausage curbs must be removed. I'm saying "if you die or kill someone else, so be it, it's your fault" attitude doesn't really help.

This is why: https://youtu.be/WlXDJY3e6KY?t=71
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Old 14 Sep 2021, 18:58 (Ref:4073914)   #1685
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Mod: can we keep this thread on the topic of the halo or alternative safety devices. There are other threads for track limits, how they are defined and enforced with circuit furniture.
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Old 15 Sep 2021, 00:57 (Ref:4073971)   #1686
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Mod: can we keep this thread on the topic of the halo or alternative safety devices. There are other threads for track limits, how they are defined and enforced with circuit furniture.
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Old 15 Sep 2021, 09:12 (Ref:4074029)   #1687
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Let's focus the Hamilton/Verstappen discussion in a more relevant thread.
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