[BTCC] Round Seven, Silverstone 25-26 Sep, Races 22,23&24

[GCCheddaris]

Originally Posted by tux

Sooner Sutton moves on the better imo, guys levels above anyone else. He just cannot be stopped

Okay, but where can he go ?

[tux]

Originally Posted by GCCheddaris

Okay, but where can he go ?

That was my thought too, only place i thought was WTCR.

[Evantra]

Also, I believe the hybrid car was a DNF in R3?

[mark_l]

Originally Posted by Evantra

Also, I believe the hybrid car was a DNF in R3?

That is correct, it completed 6 laps.

[Matt K]

Originally Posted by tux

That was my thought too, only place i thought was WTCR.

Supercars would be better IMO although it's very unlikely. There's not much value in WTCR for me but I'm biased.
Anyway, Sutton going would be a big quality loss for the BTCC. Not saying I'd stop watching BTCC altogether when he's gone but there are very few drivers of his callibre in the BTCC.

[Robshillito1990]

Originally Posted by Matt K

Supercars would be better IMO although it's very unlikely. There's not much value in WTCR for me but I'm biased.
Anyway, Sutton going would be a big quality loss for the BTCC. Not saying I'd stop watching BTCC altogether when he's gone but there are very few drivers of his callibre in the BTCC.

It wouldn't be much of a loss would make for an even closer championship. Just look how close the battle for 2nd is right now. I also agree on WTCR it sucks compared to WTCC of old

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by Evantra

Wow. Not content enough with harpooning Boardley?

How come Boardley got a penalty?

[porsche962fan]

seems Turks is resigned for the titel battle as it's more about P2

I’m leaving here 4th in the standings, so will carry less weight at Doni, but only 4 points off P2. Box seat ready to go again

[Matt K]

Originally Posted by Robshillito1990

It wouldn't be much of a loss would make for an even closer championship. Just look how close the battle for 2nd is right now. I also agree on WTCR it sucks compared to WTCC of old

Honestly that Sutton's 'domination' (IMO it can't be even called one) is not a problem for the BTCC. If every season was decided by a point, it'd stop being so thrilling. Sutton's lead over rivals stems mainly from the fact that he's the most consistent of them all - unless he wins 10-15 races of the season and finishes on a podium on 20-25 occasions, I don't think we can be really afraid of a boring domination. Last year Sutton won but it wasn't until the closing stages of the season when it became apparent he's really a favourite.

It's his rivals turn to pull up their socks. In my opinion, BTCC would lose a lot if Sutton left.

And yes, old WTCC was way, way better than the current WTCR

[Matt K]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

seems Turks is resigned for the titel battle as it's more about P2

Is he really? His words don't really state it.

[Mike Harte]

I would say that Sutton's leading the championship in much the same way that Turkington had done it in the past - steadily stacking up the points as much as he could whilst trying to stay out of harms' way. He appears to be taking less chances and just picking up points where he can, because points lead to the ultimate prize and you need to finish the races to win points. Much the same as Turkington had done.

[porsche962fan]

it also that car of his, it can carry maximum ballast and still be very competitive while rivals CANNOT as demostrated repeatedly , Tingram, Hill , Turkington in past rounds, if things were normal then Sutton should really qualify outside the top 10 with full ballast but it doesn't happen with him

when it doesn't carry ballast it's almost like it has wider tires and for everyone thinking it's Sutton driving skill alone, recenlty it made Moffat look good too

Lloyd also said in interview "not him" when refering seeing Sutton in mirror just like Turkington did a few rounds ago

[mprmke]

Originally Posted by Matt K

Is he really? His words don't really state it.

No, it doesn’t. What he’s alluding to is that he is barely any worse off than second place, points wise, but carries the ballast for fourth place, so he hopes to have an advantage over the two between him and Sutton going into Donington.

[Matt K]

Originally Posted by mprmke

No, it doesn’t. What he’s alluding to is that he is barely any worse off than second place, points wise, but carries the ballast for fourth place, so he hopes to have an advantage over the two between him and Sutton going into Donington.

Precisely my point. Doubt Turkington may give up his title hopes at this stage of the season.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

it also that car of his, it can carry maximum ballast and still be very competitive while rivals CANNOT as demostrated repeatedly , Tingram, Hill , Turkington in past rounds, if things were normal then Sutton should really qualify outside the top 10 with full ballast but it doesn't happen with him

when it doesn't carry ballast it's almost like it has wider tires and for everyone thinking it's Sutton driving skill alone, recenlty it made Moffat look good too

Lloyd also said in interview "not him" when refering seeing Sutton in mirror just like Turkington did a few rounds ago

I seem to recall something similar when Turkington was driving the car that was the class of the field; I would suggest that that is not the case presently, the car I mean. And Butcher clearly demonstrated only yesterday that Sutton is not the only one that can keep at the pointy end when his car is carrying full ballast.

[mprmke]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I seem to recall something similar when Turkington was driving the car that was the class of the field; I would suggest that that is not the case presently, the car I mean. And Butcher clearly demonstrated only yesterday that Sutton is not the only one that can keep at the pointy end when his car is carrying full ballast.

It's a lot easier from 1st than it is from 6th or 10th etc, but it's a valid point.

The BMW has a few aero issues this year I think.

[mprmke]

Originally Posted by Matt K

Precisely my point. Doubt Turkington may give up his title hopes at this stage of the season.

Exactly. There are 4 drivers still in with a realistic shout. Yes, with his points advantages and his/his car's general all round strength, Sutton will be a big favourite. Bigger favourite than anyone in recent times at this point in the season, but it's far from a done deal yet.

Usually, going into the Brands Hatch Finale, there are 2 or 3 drivers with a realistic chance, separated by very few points, then there's another 1 or possibly 2 drivers who are a little further behind (30+ points) who will say that their chances are very slim as it will need at least 2 or 3 drivers in front of them to have a disastrous weekend for them to have any hope. This time, it's a reverse. Sutton has a cushion, but it only takes him to have a disastrous weekend, then surely at least 1 of the other 3 drivers behind will make the most of that and jump ahead of him.

Yes, it looks unlikely given his form all season, but it's certainly far from impossible. It's only one big-ish accident or one mechanical failure, or a couple of minor offs away from being a reality.....

[AnnoyedMoose]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

it also that car of his, it can carry maximum ballast and still be very competitive while rivals CANNOT as demostrated repeatedly , Tingram, Hill , Turkington in past rounds, if things were normal then Sutton should really qualify outside the top 10 with full ballast but it doesn't happen with him

when it doesn't carry ballast it's almost like it has wider tires and for everyone thinking it's Sutton driving skill alone, recenlty it made Moffat look good too

What is that they are doing that lets the car react that way though? It's not as though it has huge engine placement advantages like the Subaru did.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by AnnoyedMoose

What is that they are doing that lets the car react that way though? It's not as though it has huge engine placement advantages like the Subaru did.

It has been commented on ITV that some of the advantage comes from the way that Sutton likes to have his cars with a fairly soft suspension set-up, which compliments his supreme driving ability. It is noticeable that Moffat in particular, and Boardley to a lesser extent, are creeping up the grid since they have both followed Sutton's set-up. Also, the ITV team also noted that Sutton has been "coaching" them, particularly Moffat which probably accounts for his performance at Croft.

[S griffin]

Great weekend of racing. Nice to see Butcher up there, although that win in the first race will always be dubious due to the yellow flag incident. Really need a bit more clarity on that, even if the pass was technically outside the yellow flags

Cook’s exclusion has really dented his title hopes. However Hill managed to salvage some hopes with that fine win in the final race after starting so far back in the first race. But Sutton extends his lead and on this form, I find it hard to see how he can lose the title

Bit of a surprise to see the Vauxhalls up there on a track that shouldn’t suit their car. Lloyd looked very happy after that

Roll on Donny

[hen henths]

Originally Posted by tux

Sooner Sutton moves on the better imo, guys levels above anyone else. He just cannot be stopped

It doesn't say much for the BTCC if people really feel that a driver can be too talented for BTCC. I mean, I know it's supposed to be all about entertainment but I found the multi-corner passes at Silverstone very entertaining.

Anyway, fortunes change quickly in the BTCC and it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if Ash gets hobbled with harsh balance of performance adjustments in years to come.

I don't really like the idea of messing with the outcomes of this sport too much. It risks becoming the WWE of motorsport. I just want to see Ash get five championships!

[Sodemo]

So whats wrong with the BMW this year? Someone mentioned the aero, but I thought the aero just stayed the same year on year?

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

So whats wrong with the BMW this year? Someone mentioned the aero, but I thought the aero just stayed the same year on year?

I don't think that anything major is wrong with the Beemers; I just think that other teams with front line drivers have seriously upped their game and are now able to keep up with them and beat them. However, I come back to the point that I made before that, of the WSR team, it was only really Turks and Jordan that got the most out of them and that was only on RWD tracks. In others they just collected points as and where they could. Turkington in particular was Mr Consistency.

[mprmke]

The BMW is struggling with Aero. It is noticeable when watching the car following behind another, but I don't know the specifics and the reasons why. Aside from that and wet weather set-up, the car is there or thereabouts.

Sutton's set-up is very, very extreme and it allows him to extract that extra couple of per cent out of the car compared to others. To most drivers, this set-up would feel undriveable. This is why he excelled in the Subaru where others failed for the most part. That was a car which really suited this set-up. Plato was always the master at squeezing results out of a poor car in the BTCC and he couldn't do much for the most part in that car, so it shows how different this was.

Sutton is a top driver, no doubt, and he did well as a rookie in the MG, but in a FWD car he wouldn't have the same "advantage" he does with a RWD car. The BoP is fine, so nothing can really be done to peg him back any more. His set up is very similar to that of Michael Schumacher in F1 when he was at his peak. In whichever team her drove for, the spare car was predictably always going to be set up for him, so if any of his team mates had to drive it, they were dreading it.

Sutton is coaching Moffat and Moffat is slowly moving his set-up towards that of Sutton's and he'd just starting to really click with the car, hence his sharp improvement recently. Moffat's set-up is still nowhere near as extreme as Sutton's yet, if it ever will be.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by AnnoyedMoose

What is that they are doing that lets the car react that way though? It's not as though it has huge engine placement advantages like the Subaru did.

It's a combination of may factors, all of which contribute in some way to why the car is performing so well. I'm going to put to one side the ability of the drivers here (let's not forget that Aiden won 3 races in the slow Mercedes).

Firstly - the design of the car (in terms of initial homologation process). The Mercedes that Aiden drove previously was an inherited design, one that was designed for Adam Morgan. That may not sound like a major point, but from the outset Laser Tools were having to adapt someone else's philosophy. One that they were not involved in the concept phase for, and may be different to one that would suit Aiden's style. Ciceley owned the rights to the design, and prevented Laser Tools from taking the car in certain design directions.

So what we saw from Laser Tools with the Mercedes was a heavily compromised situation. The team may have had a lot more potential that couldn't be unlocked with the Mercedes.

Secondly - the foresight of Frederico Turrata in 2019, urging Moffat Sr to put the Infinitis on the track sent them (seemingly) down the right road to success. The Q50s were initially purchased as demo vehicles for Raceworx and were in the Laser Tools workshop. Frederico (Hexathron) saw them and spotted the potential, provided they could homologate the 2019 model. Free of the Ciceley constraints, and with their purchase from Palmer coming with rights to the design, they were able to effectively bring a new model to the grid. This model incorporated all of the lessons to date with NGTC, and was designed around Sutton's style.

Thirdly - the development and expertise that can be shared within the team. When they were running the Mercedes, they were using someone else's design. Using their own design, they also have access to the full range of engineers who developed the car. With Hexathron and the legacy knowledge of what was 888 (BMR) working on the car, the philosophy and approach can be shared across initially 2 and now 3 cars and drivers. Antonio Carozza has proven himself with NGTC machinery, and with the same engineering staff who were part of the development now running the car(s), the benefits can be seen.

Finally - compare it to other cars on the grid. It's RWD and running a Swindon engine. Those features are shared with other cars, but not simultaneously. Why do I say this? When the Subaru was doing well, there were two features on the car that could be 'restricted' without detriment to anyone else. The CoG benefit was negated through a CoG calculation, and whilst it still remained dominant they could also restrict the engine power.

Restricting the Q50 is a different game. The CoG is very similar to the BMW, so any change to the calculation will slow one of the main rivals down. Similarly any restriction on RWD - BMW will suffer equally. This was seen when the 3 series first arrived and the boost was adjusted. Any changes to the BMW engine also applied to Parker's 1-series.
On the engine front, the car is running the Swindon unit. Applying any restriction to this would also apply to the Hyundai and Toyota, and so challengers to the Q50 would also be restricted.


So what is the solution (if one needs to be found)? The approach to 'equalisation' needs to be double-hatted. IMO, if I was going to try and bring the Q50 back to the rest of the field a couple of changes are required. Firstly, the RWD set up needs to be restricted. A weight penalty (or similar) should be applied that significantly slows the lap times.
Then, to bring the BMW back into contention their engine needs to see an increase in boost.
Can TOCA do this in-season without significant backlash? - I doubt it.
2021 looks like it belongs to Sutton/Laser Tools and they are potentially going to take a clean sweep of all trophies except for Manufacturers' and Jack Sears. Let them have the success - they deserve it. 2022 sees a significant change in terms of the engine and hybrid power, so what better time to re-set the equalisation criteria?