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Old 27 Sep 2021, 14:01 (Ref:4075908)   #2176
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The cars are just too heavy now, they look slow and lumbering in slow corners compared to cars from decades ago. Make them 100kg lighter and mandate shorter wheelbases by 400mm.
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Old 27 Sep 2021, 14:44 (Ref:4075919)   #2177
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We have had some absolutely great races this year. Can we not close this thread, as it is no longer relevant.
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Old 27 Sep 2021, 15:21 (Ref:4075927)   #2178
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We have had some absolutely great races this year. Can we not close this thread, as it is no longer relevant.
If we closed every thread where the subject is no longer relevant, the mods would be very busy.......
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Old 27 Sep 2021, 16:07 (Ref:4075943)   #2179
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I think if you look at the reasons why this season is more interesting then the previous ones I would list the following:

1 Two teams at the top now, with a very tight and fierce battle between their first drivers. (I think the latest aero rules helped here, kudos to the FIA, Liberty).
2 The old king vs the new challenger story
3 Top teams are now also more budget limited which has an continuously increasing impact on the competitiveness of the field. (again kudo's to FIA/Liberty).
4 The field always gets closer after a longer period of stable regulations.

On that last topic, of course one could say why change things again? However the new regulation do try to fix the long standing issue of cars needing able to drive close enough around each other. This is a change that was necessary and we just need to get through it.

I think the FIA and Liberty are on the right path with the regulations. They will just take more time to come to full effect, but the first benefits have already become visible this season.
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Old 27 Sep 2021, 16:25 (Ref:4075954)   #2180
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We have had some absolutely great races this year. Can we not close this thread, as it is no longer relevant.


though may be time to start looking at the last couple of years to see what conclusions we can draw about why the racing was better/has been getting better.

- Covid added a bunch of tracks F1 hasent seen for a long time and thus teams were not prepared to the Nth degree for them.

- back to back races at the same venues and altered race weekend formats.

- travel restrictions meant smaller groups of staff traveling at at each event.

- movement towards reduced budgets.

- carry over of an old chassis and a partial freeze on development allowed the field to get closer together. starting to see the mid field catch up to the top teams on occasion now.

the last one for me i feel is the best lesson...why does F1 need a new car every season?

extending the development cycle across a couple of seasons may be the ticket.

rather, every season we hope they will solve the aero/following problem and every year they fail to. maybe the issue is just as simple as saying they fail because these creative engineers are never given enough time with the same set of cars to solve the problem?

nothing is ever that simple of course but an idea worth examining more imo.
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Old 27 Sep 2021, 16:29 (Ref:4075956)   #2181
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I think if you look at the reasons why this season is more interesting then the previous ones I would list the following:

1 Two teams at the top now, with a very tight and fierce battle between their first drivers. (I think the latest aero rules helped here, kudos to the FIA, Liberty).
2 The old king vs the new challenger story
3 Top teams are now also more budget limited which has an continuously increasing impact on the competitiveness of the field. (again kudo's to FIA/Liberty).
4 The field always gets closer after a longer period of stable regulations.

On that last topic, of course one could say why change things again? However the new regulation do try to fix the long standing issue of cars needing able to drive close enough around each other. This is a change that was necessary and we just need to get through it.

I think the FIA and Liberty are on the right path with the regulations. They will just take more time to come to full effect, but the first benefits have already become visible this season.
was typing out an idea along similar lines to yours and missed your post.

you beat me to it!

also looking forward to see if the new rules can add to what has turned out to be some unexpected positive outcomes from the covid situation.
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Old 27 Sep 2021, 20:53 (Ref:4075986)   #2182
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I think - 2001 season.

The suggestion was that the lowest driver in the table is not allowed to return the following year. Alonso was the lowest (full-season) driver in 2001 and so would have been excluded in 2002.
As it was, that is effectively what happened (test driver in 2002), and he returned in 2003 - got three podiums including a win and the rest, as they say, is history.

So - the future suggests that Mazpein will be a test driver in 2022 for Alpine, and in 2024 win his first WDC driving for them.
Ah yes that makes more sense, thanks! It also highlights my stupidity lol.

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If we closed every thread where the subject is no longer relevant, the mods would be very busy.......
New thread: "How do we fix tentenths threads?"
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Old 28 Sep 2021, 06:29 (Ref:4076039)   #2183
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We have had some absolutely great races this year. Can we not close this thread, as it is no longer relevant.
Only by circumstance and not for anything resembling systemic lasting changes. Ferrari are on record saying their testing has shown the aero wake problems will not be resolved so don't expect too much in cars being able to follow close enough to overtake without DRS.
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Old 28 Sep 2021, 11:22 (Ref:4076071)   #2184
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Ah yes that makes more sense, thanks! It also highlights my stupidity lol.



New thread: "How do we fix tentenths threads?"
With a needle, I guess......
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Old 28 Sep 2021, 12:40 (Ref:4076087)   #2185
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With a needle, I guess......
Are you sure that's not 'with some needle'?
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Old 28 Sep 2021, 13:02 (Ref:4076093)   #2186
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That could be true too....
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Old 2 Oct 2021, 12:35 (Ref:4076649)   #2187
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I guess this only matters if you still watch it, if you have pretty much moved on from f1 as I did when the hybrids came in you dont see an issue.

I think F1 is very much the emperors new clothes and has been for quite some time, I dont understand why people pay so much money to watch it, why people leave brilliant jobs to work there and why there seems to still be an endless fascination with it. But hey I must be wrong obviously.
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Old 3 Oct 2021, 13:47 (Ref:4076826)   #2188
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I don't watch cricket, but I don't feel the need to go on cricket forums and tell people that I think the short forms of the game are the Emperor's New Clothes.

I could say that about an awful lot of sports, actually. Or bands, or authors, or movies, restaurants - the list is almost inexhaustibly long. But I don't.
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Old 4 Oct 2021, 06:34 (Ref:4076893)   #2189
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The cars are just too heavy now, they look slow and lumbering in slow corners compared to cars from decades ago. Make them 100kg lighter and mandate shorter wheelbases by 400mm.
You are right, but I'm not sure where you would remove the weight. Most of the weight is either safety, like the halo which is quite heavy, or hybrid gubbins. Both of which entrants (OEM vehicle manufacturers) consider necessary.

3600mm for 2022 was the shortest wheelbase F1 teams were willing to agree to (this is only around 30-70mm shorter than 2021, in 2021 of course there is no restriction on wheelbase length in the regulations), the FIA & Tombazis wanted 3400mm but the teams rejected this regulation.

Fun fact: until '72 there was no restriction on car width in the regulations (2.15m was then specified as it was the widest car which was the McLaren), and until '76 (the infamous Ligier JS5) there was no restriction on car height in the regulations! Hell, until the Williams FW07D prototype of '81, there wasn't even a maximum of four wheels, nor was four wheel drive (or more) banned. Many of the regulations were quite reactionary.

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Old 4 Oct 2021, 07:29 (Ref:4076895)   #2190
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3600mm for 2022 was the shortest wheelbase F1 teams were willing to agree to (this is only around 30-70mm shorter than 2021, in 2021 of course there is no restriction on wheelbase length in the regulations), the FIA & Tombazis wanted 3400mm but the teams rejected this regulation.
A classic case of the inmates running the jail. Personally I think the current cries from fandom to reduce weight is just a populist thing because someone thought it was a good idea. F1 seems prone to populist ideas for some reason, when Kubica returned the furore and comment soon turned to silence after he did not perform as everyone said he would.
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Old 4 Oct 2021, 07:52 (Ref:4076898)   #2191
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Drivetrain:
3.0L V10 with KERS
Fuel: Synthetic
Fuel capacity: 120kg
Rev. Limit: 16.000rpm
Power output (incl. KERS): 900bhp

Chassis:
Min. weight: 685kg (- 90kg; much lighter drivetrain incl. without extra fuel flow meter, shorter, narrower car, much lighter wheels and tires).
Max. width: 1.8m (- 0.2m)
Max. wheelbase: 3.4m

Wheels and tires:
Wheel diameter: 16-inch (2022 –2-inch, 2016 +3-inch)
Tire diameter: 670mm (2022 -50mm, 2021 +10mm)
Front: 245/16
Rear: 325/16




Done!
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Old 4 Oct 2021, 13:21 (Ref:4076927)   #2192
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Why specify a power output, let them get as much out of it as they can.
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Old 4 Oct 2021, 15:26 (Ref:4076945)   #2193
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Why specify a power output, let them get as much out of it as they can.

If they want it road relevant they could best use a cheap, light and emotive combustion engine on synthetic fuel and let the engineering effort go into a state of the art battery and electric motors.
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Old 4 Oct 2021, 15:36 (Ref:4076946)   #2194
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F1 has never needed to be road relevant, it’s fine in it’s own right. Keep the traditional engines that make a noise and use greener fuel. No need to try and bring it closer to road cars
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Old 4 Oct 2021, 16:01 (Ref:4076951)   #2195
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F1 has never needed to be road relevant, it’s fine in it’s own right. Keep the traditional engines that make a noise and use greener fuel. No need to try and bring it closer to road cars

The manufacturers, who now dominate F1, want to be seen to be greener, so if they wish to continue to use F1 as a marketing tool, F1 has to be greener and more road relevant.
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Old 4 Oct 2021, 23:09 (Ref:4076988)   #2196
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If they want it road relevant they could best use a cheap, light and emotive combustion engine on synthetic fuel and let the engineering effort go into a state of the art battery and electric motors.
Yes, a view I have expressed here before. There is absolutely no reason to build bespoke engines these days unlike in past times when building special motors was essential.
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Old 6 Oct 2021, 01:12 (Ref:4077124)   #2197
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Personally I think the current cries from fandom to reduce weight is just a populist thing because someone thought it was a good idea.
Those "cries" have been around for a long time, many of them on here (myself included) and many of them from people who have been in the racing industry for years (not just fandom).

F1 cars now are right up there with the weight of Group C cars back in the day, & have lost that darty, nervous reaction capability of F1 cars for so many years. Yes, times change but when cars get to a point of being visibly "clumsy" or unreactive (not sure that's a word) compared with their forebears, then it feels like times have changed a bit too much.
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Old 6 Oct 2021, 02:03 (Ref:4077129)   #2198
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Those "cries" have been around for a long time, many of them on here (myself included) and many of them from people who have been in the racing industry for years (not just fandom).

F1 cars now are right up there with the weight of Group C cars back in the day, & have lost that darty, nervous reaction capability of F1 cars for so many years. Yes, times change but when cars get to a point of being visibly "clumsy" or unreactive (not sure that's a word) compared with their forebears, then it feels like times have changed a bit too much.
Cant agree enough here Tourer, clumsy is the word.

There was an interesting Vlog from Harry's garage on JCB's analysis of how electric power is just too heavy and expensive for heavy machinery that has to work for many hours a day and hydrogen powered IC engines are what they anticipate in future.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19Q7nAYjAJY

Tip: watch on 2x speed, but very interesting.

Take note F1. - Ditch the Batteries.


P.S. Clip from engineering explained on Toyota's hydrogen racer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IPR50-soNA

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Old 6 Oct 2021, 02:34 (Ref:4077131)   #2199
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I dont know if F1 needs to be road relevant
given that Renault and Merc are the only mainstream manufacturers
Mclaren Ferrari AM ... well if you in that market, its probably a weekend toy not your daily so youre probably not too concerned about its green stamp
And the others.. well haas, redbull williams etc dont make road cars
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Old 6 Oct 2021, 08:56 (Ref:4077152)   #2200
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For purely competition purposes there may be no need for road relevance.In the Uk at least there is a body of people who dislike all forms of motor vehicle, purportedly because of environmental concerns.It is slightly less difficult to justify the whole endeavour if there are useful spin offs for society by continuing with the activity.It might easily be argued that a weekend of football creates more greenhouse gases,what with thousands of cars streaming scarves along motorways and even amateurs car sharing to play at their local parks.Nobody ever advances that point and so we get Greta Thunberg and her shrill imitators agitating against all forms of internal combustion engines.Not to mention the real hard core mob who glued themselves to the road surface this week to stop vehicles moving and one of the more demented declared that he didn't care if people in ambulances died as a result.These people exist and need to be countered or their voices will sooner or later end motorsport.Developing things that will benefit society is a reasonably compelling justification.


As much as I would like to see 150Kg come off the weight of the cars and maybe 400mm out of the wheelbase,I understand how we arrived at this point.Its what batteries weigh and basic aerodynamics tells us that increasing the area over which downforce acts will increase the load on the tyres and hence the grip.Its a bit unfortunate that we are about to see a new formula when the present version has just matured to the point where we don't expect a Mercedes 1-2 at every race.That led to a level of predictability redolent of the Schumacher years at the beginning of the century.


I don't see the internal combustion element going away soon,but I know there will be a higher proportion of biofuel soon and wouldn't be surprised to see fully synthetic come into play.Maybe hydrogen too and Le Mans may be leading the way in this respect.The FIA and the CRH are well aware of the challenges and may be expected to do their best.The existing teams may need to look beyond their immediate interests if they are to keep the series viable.Less dependency on manufacturers may be a part of it.None of them has a divine right to exist and although the barriers to entry are very high,it doesn't mean they are guaranteed to exist forever as racing teams.A quick look at the list of extinct teams should remind them of that,some distinguished names have left the grid as well as a lot of minnows.Change is the only constant and not all change is welcomed.
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