LMDh (DPi regulations version 2.0)

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

What would we call Hypercar Pro-Am? "Hyper" and "Amatuer" seem ever so slightly oxymoronic. So how about:

- A LittleLessHypercar
- ICantBelieveItsNotHypercar
- Calmercar
- Decorumcar

The Steve O'Rourke class (with the winner to receive the similar named trophy) - a fitting tribute that describes the 'spirit' of the class very accurately!

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

What would we call Hypercar Pro-Am? "Hyper" and "Amatuer" seem ever so slightly oxymoronic. So how about:

- A LittleLessHypercar
- ICantBelieveItsNotHypercar
- Calmercar
- Decorumcar

1AmPerCar

[S griffin]

Notsohypercar

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

What would we call Hypercar Pro-Am? "Hyper" and "Amatuer" seem ever so slightly oxymoronic. So how about:

- A LittleLessHypercar
- ICantBelieveItsNotHypercar
- Calmercar
- Decorumcar

Bearing in mind the maturity of some of the Am drivers how about 'Age Before Beauty'..... ?

[TF110]

Read on Twitter, I believe, from the artist for the Cadillac lmdh render drew it up way before the announcement or confirmation from Cadillac. So it's (wingless) design has probably 0 bearing on reality.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by TF110

Read on Twitter, I believe, from the artist for the Cadillac lmdh render drew it up way before the announcement or confirmation from Cadillac. So it's (wingless) design has probably 0 bearing on reality.

that render not only was missing of a proper rear wing but had also both of those kind of side winglets oriented to right... which would be a good aero set-up.... to run clockwise on nascar ovals maybe

[Pandamasque]

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2021/0...s-partner.html

Let's home this partnership isn't just a Flasch in the pan... or a Krack in the sack.

[joeb]

Good to see some updates on lmdh.

Is this the current list of constructor tie ins?

Multimatic - Porsche, Audi, Lambo
Dallara - GM, BMW
Oreca - Honda
Ligier - ?

[canaglia]

I'm glad dallara will supply its chassis to 2 different manufacturers, so according to results we will be able to understand which of two worked better starting from the same base.

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by canaglia

I'm glad dallara will supply its chassis to 2 different manufacturers, so according to results we will be able to understand which of two worked better starting from the same base.

Au contraire.....

How can we tell which is better when they're using the same chassis?.....not designing and constructing their own?

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by jimclark

Au contraire.....

How can we tell which is better when they're using the same chassis?.....not designing and constructing their own?

chassis will be the same, but bodywork, suspensions settings and else could have some differences between the 2 cars, not to consider powertrain will be different as well, just look at the performance difference between dallara lmp2 and cadillac dpi, same base different aero and engine, the first is crap the second one got an engine change and all kind of restrictions by bop due its clear superiority.
Anyway wonder what engine will bmw use, to me could be one of these
1. V8 4L twin turbo from M8 gte, eventually made it somehow smaller
2. L6 3L turbo from M4 gt3
3. an updated version of old dinan 5L V8 NA

The L6 I find it unlikely because it would need the same room of a V12, same about the old dinan 5L considering it's based on a 20 years old engine (even if the AER powering mazda dpi is based on early '00 mzr as well)

[seanyb505]

Originally Posted by jimclark

Au contraire.....

How can we tell which is better when they're using the same chassis?.....not designing and constructing their own?

Probably the same way we can tell which is faster when they use the same tire not designing and constructing their own. Timing, checker flags, podium position, etc.

[Pandamasque]

I can't decide if I find all the passions around developing a faster car in a BoP class more amusing than tiring or vice versa. The real competition is which one looks and sounds better. That can't be BoPed!

Anyway, the impression I get from the BMW press release is that Dallara is really the one designing the car with only styling input from BMW designers. And the engine, of course.

It also seems like BMW is a little late to the party and the chassis has already been designed to suit the Cadillac project. BMW will have to deal with what they're given.
This, by the way, will be the fate of any OEMs joining LMDh from now on, unless they choose Ligier and do so before Ligier's P2 tub gets homologated, assuming Ligier P2 or the whole 2024 P2 in general happens at all.

[canaglia]

Well nothing unusual for bmw, as far I remember they never designed or directly built their prototypes... M1 was mainly a lamborghini-dallara effort, bmw f1 cars of recent past were made by williams at first and by sauber during last years.

Also the 1999 winning LMR was actually made by williams, dtm cars from 2012 were chassis-aero spec with a third party tub supplier for everyone.
BMW was also the only manufacturer I can remember to have fielded under bmw motorsport work effort two cars registered as a different OEM lol

Just history repeating itself... the next step will be bmw complaining about lmdh bop...

I actually don't see many other manufacturers interested in lmdh, at the same I think nobody will knock onroak door... their lmp2 is a mess and basically disappeared from IMSA, WEC and ELMS, the effort for nissan dpi was quite minimal. Unless things changed recently, onroak hasn't a composite factory unlike oreca, dallara and multimatic...
if I am not wrong, in early 2020 there were statements about ligier working along peugeot for the aero development of 9X8, but guess peugeot dropped them and kept on its own since nobody mentioned onroak when 9X8 was revealed.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by canaglia

their lmp2 is a mess and basically disappeared from IMSA, WEC and ELMS

You can say that about all 3 P2 constructors that didn't get an unfair advantage of the rules being written to re-homologate their existing P1 car as the next P2.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

You can say that about all 3 P2 constructors that didn't get an unfair advantage of the rules being written to re-homologate their existing P1 car as the next P2.

oh dear, the same old story... it's strange this poppep-up here only by now... I've read and refuted about this for years in many different sites and forums...



1. 2017 lmp2 specs were released in 2014 and finalized in 2015 when ACO selected the 4 different manufacturers cutting out ginetta and BR that applied too.
Since it wasn't a night to day decision, all lmp2 manufacturers had 2 years and half to design and develope their 2017 lmp2.

2. what was unfair? You mean because oreca introduced R-one and 05 with lmp1 size before 2017? There was any rule that prevented ligier or other manufacturers from doing the same? What you call unfair advantage, I call oreca forward-looking attitude because there was no rule preventing others doing the same.
Oreca released 05 in 2015 when onroak guys didn't manage to understand yet how to make brakes work on their 2014 coupè lmp2...

3. 05 and R-one were designed to fit different engines, different weights and weight distribution and likely different tires (can't remember if 2014-2016 lmp1-2 tires were of the same tires of 2017-2021 lmp2).
The proof of this is that despite 05 tub was fully compatible with 07 bodywork, 07 based on 05 tubs were used only in 2017 due the lack of enough 07 tubs available, from 2018 everyone dropped 05 tubs because a 07 made on 07 tub was however better.


4. honestly... with a riley lmp2 with he same drag of a brickwall and being in general more similiar to a lmp3 than else, a dallara lmp2 that required a compromised aero set-up since 2018 to don't risk to get airborne and a ligier lmp2 almost impossible to set-up according to former owners, is there still people in 2021 thinking that oreca 07 success depends by the R-one and 05 seasons?

Please... it's just like to say that mercedes won all world championships since 2014 to 2020 because had a secret pirelli test in 2013...

[Pandamasque]

I get it. Ligier, Dallara and Multimatic were grossly incompetent not to race and develop a P1 car to later homologate it as a P2 "prototype" with frozen development.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by canaglia

oh dear, the same old story... it's strange this poppep-up here only by now... I've read and refuted about this for years in many different sites and forums...



1. 2017 lmp2 specs were released in 2014 and finalized in 2015 when ACO selected the 4 different manufacturers cutting out ginetta and BR that applied too.
Since it wasn't a night to day decision, all lmp2 manufacturers had 2 years and half to design and develope their 2017 lmp2.

2. what was unfair? You mean because oreca introduced R-one and 05 with lmp1 size before 2017? There was any rule that prevented ligier or other manufacturers from doing the same? What you call unfair advantage, I call oreca forward-looking attitude because there was no rule preventing others doing the same.
Oreca released 05 in 2015 when onroak guys didn't manage to understand yet how to make brakes work on their 2014 coupè lmp2...

3. 05 and R-one were designed to fit different engines, different weights and weight distribution and likely different tires (can't remember if 2014-2016 lmp1-2 tires were of the same tires of 2017-2021 lmp2).
The proof of this is that despite 05 tub was fully compatible with 07 bodywork, 07 based on 05 tubs were used only in 2017 due the lack of enough 07 tubs available, from 2018 everyone dropped 05 tubs because a 07 made on 07 tub was however better.


4. honestly... with a riley lmp2 with he same drag of a brickwall and being in general more similiar to a lmp3 than else, a dallara lmp2 that required a compromised aero set-up since 2018 to don't risk to get airborne and a ligier lmp2 almost impossible to set-up according to former owners, is there still people in 2021 thinking that oreca 07 success depends by the R-one and 05 seasons?

Please... it's just like to say that mercedes won all world championships since 2014 to 2020 because had a secret pirelli test in 2013...

Yup, so having a FULLY FUNDED DEEEEEEEEEP pocket to pay for the car? Nah, that's just secondary to actually building a car I guess

Oh, and your MB equivalency?? Not so much, you would have been better served by arguing some of their personnel went to the FIA and knew what MB had in the works for engine development. It's garbage but at least it has some basis in both actual people moving up and on AND equal importance of development. Plus MB has not been the best car on its tires too so....

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Yup, so having a FULLY FUNDED DEEEEEEEEEP pocket to pay for the car? Nah, that's just secondary to actually building a car I guess

Oh, and your MB equivalency?? Not so much, you would have been better served by arguing some of their personnel went to the FIA and knew what MB had in the works for engine development. It's garbage but at least it has some basis in both actual people moving up and on AND equal importance of development. Plus MB has not been the best car on its tires too so....

Could you kindly be less cryptic because I honestly can't understand what you mean on both your considerations, and btw I'm not interested in f1 madness, I wrote that about mercedes just because there are still people thinking mercedes is still winning nowadays because of that 2013 test, as I think is unreasonable for the same reasons about oreca winning today because of 05.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

I get it. Ligier, Dallara and Multimatic were grossly incompetent not to race and develop a P1 car to later homologate it as a P2 "prototype" with frozen development.

Your argument is wrong and I'll give you another proof, in 2013 kolles had 2 coupè lmp2 badged as lotus kodewa (or something similiar). Those cars were made by Adess following 2014 lmp1 chassis ruleset, the same which oreca 05 was based on.
Well considering this and following your idea, Adess lmp2 that had even 2 years of "unfair advantage" compared to oreca 05, had to be a beast of car...



how things actually turned? That CLM lmp1 based on adess lmp2 (based on 2014 lmp1 regs) was one of worst lmp1 ever made

at that time dallara wasn't involved at all, multimatic was the spare parts supplier of lola-mazda running in IMSA and ligier coupè lmp2 despite being a competitive car suffered of heavy brakes unstability.
Guess the answer is that oreca was a better chassis manufacturers then as it is now. And as said, none was preventing other manufacturers to release lmp2 with 2014 lmp1 specs, as Adess actually did since 2013.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by canaglia

Could you kindly be less cryptic because I honestly can't understand what you mean on both your considerations, and btw I'm not interested in f1 madness, I wrote that about mercedes just because there are still people thinking mercedes is still winning nowadays because of that 2013 test, as I think is unreasonable for the same reasons about oreca winning today because of 05.

So you make an argument you don't understand to make a point that misses entirely why Oreca has more development.

I'll write it in big leaders so you get it.

ORECA HAS A BETTER BASE CAR BECAUSE REBELLION FUNDED THE DEVELOPMENT. Oh, that's also why the Kolles car didn't lead to a better car, they didn't have the money to spend.

Oh and no one but idiots who don't understand F1 EVER thought the tire test was anything but a MAYBE boost for a race or 2. So maybe limit your attempts at comebacks to things you actually know anything about, you'll look far less foolish

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

So you make an argument you don't understand to make a point that misses entirely why Oreca has more development.

I'll write it in big leaders so you get it.

ORECA HAS A BETTER BASE CAR BECAUSE REBELLION FUNDED THE DEVELOPMENT. Oh, that's also why the Kolles car didn't lead to a better car, they didn't have the money to spend.

Oh and no one but idiots who don't understand F1 EVER thought the tire test was anything but a MAYBE boost for a race or 2. So maybe limit your attempts at comebacks to things you actually know anything about, you'll look far less foolish

First of all, it's not if you write something uppercase, what you have written, gets automatically more importance... second thing, rebellion hired oreca to design their car because they couldn't run anymore their lola, oreca did that and from the same concept were born R-one and 05.
The fact rebellion hired oreca and not other chassis manufacturers, means that oreca was the best even 10 years ago.
Here I'm arguing about the fact that according to someone, running a lmp2 made on 2014 lmp1 specs was an "unfair advantage", thing that revealed to be untrue.
I don't even answer you about f1 because it's clearly you the one who doesn't know what is talking about, but it's not that the problem... honestly how dare you to write to me that way? Are we maybe mate or else? I'm refuting and arguing about opinions, I don't attack the person who expressed the opinions as you're doing. So, oreca or not oreca, accept my advice, If you're looking for someone to flame off with, go on reddit or some other forum with people who is used to your same "elegance". I'm too smart to be involved in your childish games.
Can't recall I was ever been impressed by some posts of yours, so guess I won't lose anything of important now I inaugurated my ignore list with your username. Bye.

[broadrun96]

Well marketing won the day and the concept design sold to the budget creators was published.

"Despite that the released render depicted the car wingless, similar to the Peugeot 9X8 Le Mans Hypercar, Klauser confirmed its LMDh car will run with a traditional rear wing.

“We need to have a rear wing per the regulations,” she said.

“What we wanted to share with everybody was the vision. That was one of the very early renderings that sold the program in the company and got us excited about it.

“It was too cool not to share. I think you’ll see as announcements continue to come and if we have visuals, you’ll see the car evolving into where it’s going to be when it hits the pavement.""


And sounds like we will see the usual suspects and JDC Miller might be left out in the cold "Klauser said she “can’t comment one way or another” on the possibility of additional teams joining the Cadillac fray alongside the already-announced Chip Ganassi Racing and Action Express Racing but has essentially ruled out customer cars for the at least the first year of the program."


From S365, https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...cadillac-lmdh/

[joeb]

BMW series on development of the lmdh is available for viewing. I watched some of episode 3 and they showed the drivers the actually design of the car. They showed us a render which according to the drivers reaction is different from the actual design.

Also lots of behind the scenes Petit footage.

https://www.dailysportscar.com/2021/...hronicled.html

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by joeb

BMW series on development of the lmdh is available for viewing. I watched some of episode 3 and they showed the drivers the actually design of the car. They showed us a render which according to the drivers reaction is different from the actual design.

Also lots of behind the scenes Petit footage.

https://www.dailysportscar.com/2021/...hronicled.html

Sounds interesting. Thanks for posting.