[BTCC] Round Five, Croft 25-26 Jun, Races 13,14&15

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by 3marinadrive

Why? There's Half a Season to go and there are no team orders unless it's mathematically impossible for him to win it....one or two solid weekends for Hill and tough ones for those ahead and he's right back in it...he's had his qualifying ruined by Chilton at Oulton Park and a Red Flag whilst 'Purple' at Croft, so the pace is there...

Also the mid-season test is coming up - he didn't get much running pre-season so if they get the data they need, he could be a very strong contender. Speaking with those close to him, there's a lot more to come from him this year....

Is he doing the test?

[mattcanary]

Originally Posted by Evantra

Go on then crmalcolm, what would the R2 grid have looked like with this?

What the grid would be isn't the point really.

The point really is that an accident in race 1 from trying to make up places, wouldn't result in a destroyed weekend. It would encourage more risk-taking.

I agree, it's a great idea, and doe already happen in some racing series, I believe

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by mattcanary

The point really is that an accident in race 1 from trying to make up places, wouldn't result in a destroyed weekend. It would encourage more risk-taking.

Would it though? If you are trying to make up place in race 1 then that probably means your qualifying was poor.
If you then take race 2 grid from qualifying, you are moved back again on the grid.

This weekend, Shedden and Cook showed why it is not really needed (IMO).
Shedden was able to come back from a poor race 1, and Cook was able to build through the 3 races after a poor qualifying session.

[mattcanary]

Originally Posted by BTCC frog

I agree that 2006-2009 were awesome seasons, 2009 in particular was fantastic, but as a whole 2016-19 were even better, in my opinion, up there with the early 90s as the absolute peak of British Touring Cars. 2020 was a slight downgrade, in a large part due to covid, then 2021 admittedly was a bad season, in my opinion the worst since 2005. 2022 started very well with Donington and Brands Hatch being excellent weekends but the last three rounds have had duller racing, probably due to the hybrid being so ineffective, and I also think we are missing the option tyre.

For next year I would like to see the return of the option tyre, a return of success ballast but altered so there is ballast in qualifying and race two only and nothing in races one and three, and the hybrid available for all drivers for 15 seconds per lap, maybe only on half the laps so it can have an effect on the racing if it is more powerful next year, but is no longer used for performance balancing. I think that will get the BTCC back to 2016-19 level of excitement without a return to poor driving standards. Although I will miss Plato and Neal.

I would reintroduce the option tyre, (including at Thruxton - surely a harder non-option tyre can be produced for there than at other tracks?), get rid of hybrid boost and success ballast from qualifying and races.
Also, would either use each driver's 2nd fastest qualifying time from one session as starting grid for race 2, or perhaps set up two qualifying sessions - one on Saturday morning and one in the afternoon, (maybe after a further practice session in the middle of Saturday)

[antnee]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Would it though? If you are trying to make up place in race 1 then that probably means your qualifying was poor.
If you then take race 2 grid from qualifying, you are moved back again on the grid.

This weekend, Shedden and Cook showed why it is not really needed (IMO).
Shedden was able to come back from a poor race 1, and Cook was able to build through the 3 races after a poor qualifying session.

I think it would. Say you are mid-pack, somewhere around 12-15th and want to be around 5-8th, you will take a few more risks if you know worst case you start 15th again in R2 instead of 28th.

Another format for R2 grid could be a top 15 (determined from main qualifying) shoot-out with only 1 hot lap each.

[mattcanary]

Originally Posted by Craner Curves

They know good racing when they see it.

I'm sure things will be different at Knockhill. The nature of the circuit will mean mistakes will be made and passes will happen.

Croft would also normally be one of the easier circuits on which to overtake. Certainly easier then Brands, Oulton and Thruxton anyway

[mattcanary]

Originally Posted by antnee

I think it would. Say you are mid-pack, somewhere around 12-15th and want to be around 5-8th, you will take a few more risks if you know worst case you start 15th again in R2 instead of 28th.

Another format for R2 grid could be a top 15 (determined from main qualifying) shoot-out with only 1 hot lap each.

I'd say you would be more willing to go for a win when you're racing in second or third in race 1 too.

Maybe a look at the points differential between finishing positions would be worth a look too.


When you get previously attacking drivers like Ash Sutton repeatedly saying and racing like they are more intent on staying out of trouble rather than fighting for places, it doesn't really sound as if things are in great shape.

That may be just a sign of him getting older and more "mature". However, The BTCC has prided itself on being full of entertaining racing previously, and hearing these comments regularly, (not just from Ash), rather detracts from that idea

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by antnee

I think it would. Say you are mid-pack, somewhere around 12-15th and want to be around 5-8th, you will take a few more risks if you know worst case you start 15th again in R2 instead of 28th.

Possibly - I'm just going on the (admittedly small sample size) evidence from this last weekend.

In Race One - Cook started 20th and had got up to 15th. Is he more likely to go for a risky pass if he already knows that he is back to 21st for race two? He's got himself up to the points already, and can move further forward in the second race.

Comparatively - Shedden had qualified in 5th and could be seen as taking a risk by trying to make up further places.

As I say - it's just my take on it. But I think if people are already aware of their race two grid position, there is a chance they take less risks. Why risk a pass for a place when you already know that it makes no difference to race two grid? You are risking damage, repair bills and points for only a short term gain.

for example - you are 5th in the final laps of race one, and you know that you are starting on the front row for race two. If you attempt a risky move you are looking at picking up one extra point. But if it goes wrong, you could lose places, points and money having to repair the car.

Originally Posted by antnee

Say you are mid-pack, somewhere around 12-15th and want to be around 5-8th, you will take a few more risks if you know worst case you start 15th again in R2 instead of 28th.

Are you not setting yourself up to have to do the work all over again?

If you are in 12th, you are currently on 4 points. It's all in the risk reward:

Assuming you have a car that is capable of making up a few places (and if you are targeting 5th, so is everyone else in places 6 thru 11) then you might climb up to 10th and take 6 points. A further 2 places in race two and you have 8 points.
Giving you a total of 14 points from two races.

Big risks and you might make 8th in race one and get 8 points, but starting 15th and being able to make up another 5 places in race two and you have 6 points again. Your total is still 14 points from two races, but having to make 9 overtakes rather than 4.

In the situation you present - under the current system, you have the chance of steadily building and getting circa. 14 points without taking big risks.
Under the proposed system, you are having to take big risks in race 1 to get more points, because you already know you are bumped down the grid for race 2 anyway. And you might throw all of your race 1 points away in doing so.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by mattcanary

When you get previously attacking drivers like Ash Sutton repeatedly saying and racing like they are more intent on staying out of trouble rather than fighting for places, it doesn't really sound as if things are in great shape.

Most drivers / teams don't want the huge repair bills that come from 'getting into trouble'.

[mick bennett]

Originally Posted by mattcanary

I'd say you would be more willing to go for a win when you're racing in second or third in race 1 too.

Maybe a look at the points differential between finishing positions would be worth a look too.


When you get previously attacking drivers like Ash Sutton repeatedly saying and racing like they are more intent on staying out of trouble rather than fighting for places, it doesn't really sound as if things are in great shape.

That may be just a sign of him getting older and more "mature". However, The BTCC has prided itself on being full of entertaining racing previously, and hearing these comments regularly, (not just from Ash), rather detracts from that idea

DanCammish has been more vocal re the Focus than Ash . I get the impression that the car is simply not fast enough and development is becoming a "dead end" situation. Cammish saying how hard he had to work for a 8th place sums the car up.


Ash is a different driver than a couple of Championships ago, long gone is the risk taker to someone who looks at the bigger picture. He appears to be very wary of the big issue fail in race one and the weekend is wiped out.


Do the BTCC really need reverse grids?



BTCC have to do something to increase the entertainment value, simply not there at the moment. The cars are too evenly matched now, and quite sad how its going .

[Inside BTCC]

There were 162 places gained across the three races at Croft compared to Donington (210), Brands (212), Thruxton (184) and then Oulton (189)

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by Inside BTCC

There were 162 places gained across the three races at Croft compared to Donington (210), Brands (212), Thruxton (184) and then Oulton (189)

Assume that figure takes into account retirements (drivers gaining a position as a car in front drops out, not from an overtaking manoeuvre)?

[antnee]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Possibly - I'm just going on the (admittedly small sample size) evidence from this last weekend.

In Race One - Cook started 20th and had got up to 15th. Is he more likely to go for a risky pass if he already knows that he is back to 21st for race two? He's got himself up to the points already, and can move further forward in the second race.

Comparatively - Shedden had qualified in 5th and could be seen as taking a risk by trying to make up further places.

As I say - it's just my take on it. But I think if people are already aware of their race two grid position, there is a chance they take less risks. Why risk a pass for a place when you already know that it makes no difference to race two grid? You are risking damage, repair bills and points for only a short term gain.

for example - you are 5th in the final laps of race one, and you know that you are starting on the front row for race two. If you attempt a risky move you are looking at picking up one extra point. But if it goes wrong, you could lose places, points and money having to repair the car.

Glass half full/half empty argument - you could make a 'risky' move and gain a few more points. If it doesn't pan out (and you DNF), you start 15th for R2 instead of 28th. Your 2nd fastest lap could put you much further up the grid anyway.

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Are you not setting yourself up to have to do the work all over again?

If you are in 12th, you are currently on 4 points. It's all in the risk reward:

Assuming you have a car that is capable of making up a few places (and if you are targeting 5th, so is everyone else in places 6 thru 11) then you might climb up to 10th and take 6 points. A further 2 places in race two and you have 8 points.
Giving you a total of 14 points from two races.

Big risks and you might make 8th in race one and get 8 points, but starting 15th and being able to make up another 5 places in race two and you have 6 points again. Your total is still 14 points from two races, but having to make 9 overtakes rather than 4.

In the situation you present - under the current system, you have the chance of steadily building and getting circa. 14 points without taking big risks.
Under the proposed system, you are having to take big risks in race 1 to get more points, because you already know you are bumped down the grid for race 2 anyway. And you might throw all of your race 1 points away in doing so.

We are trying to get MORE overtaking, so your illustration proves it

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Evantra

Assume that figure takes into account retirements (drivers gaining a position as a car in front drops out, not from an overtaking manoeuvre)?

Correct - it's based on the gain from race start to finish

[3marinadrive]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Is he doing the test?

Yep, both days...

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by antnee

We are trying to get MORE overtaking, so your illustration proves it

Are we trying to get more overtaking - or more action?

Some have been campaigning for more action, advocating that push-to-pass is good for the BTCC.
More action = more accidents = more retirements.

Seeing half the grid in the gravel, or not even on the grid at all because of damage repair bills is not what I would want to see.

How many times have we seen Neal / Shedden / Plato [insert driver who has forced his way past with contact] slated for poor standards in the past. Weren't they just taking risks to get ahead of the car in front?

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Some have been campaigning for more action, advocating that push-to-pass is good for the BTCC.
More action = more accidents = more retirements.

nice straw man , you're an expert at it

you do know that a slight tap to pass was actualy allowed as long as the pushed car didn't lose more than one place a few seasons ago ?

but fine you if don't want contact (maybe a member of the Associtation for Preventing Cruelty Towards Bumpers? ) then why can't the hybrid have more potency ? so you can actually make a real move

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

nice straw man , you're an expert at it

you do know that a slight tap to pass was actualy allowed as long as the pushed car didn't lose more than one place a few seasons ago ?

but fine you if don't want contact (maybe a member of the Associtation for Preventing Cruelty Towards Bumpers? ) then why can't the hybrid have more potency ? so you can actually make a real move

Think you'd enjoy NASCAR.

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by Evantra

Think you'd enjoy NASCAR.

nah, too much left cornering and it's just a silouette single make series now

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

you do know that a slight tap to pass was actualy allowed as long as the pushed car didn't lose more than one place a few seasons ago ?

but fine you if don't want contact (maybe a member of the Associtation for Preventing Cruelty Towards Bumpers? ) then why can't the hybrid have more potency ? so you can actually make a real move

10 years ago, many in this forum were ready to see 'tap to pass' consigned to the history books.

https://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=132613&page=11

As you say, it might have been allowed years ago. BTCC has, fortunately, moved on from those days.

If the hybrid was more potent, it would still be available to the defending driver equally as much. You would just be penalising further those who have limited allocation.

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

nah, too much left cornering and it's just a silouette single make series now

Watch it through a mirror, then they'd all be going right!

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by Evantra

Watch it through a mirror, then they'd all be going right!

if you watch something in the mirror going left is still going left

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

10 years ago, many in this forum were ready to see 'tap to pass' consigned to the history books.

https://tentenths.com/forum/showthre...132613&page=11

As you say, it might have been allowed years ago. BTCC has, fortunately, moved on from those days.

If the hybrid was more potent, it would still be available to the defending driver equally as much. You would just be penalising further those who have limited allocation.

so what's your solutions to avoid boredom processions ?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

so what's your solutions to avoid boredom processions ?

Appreciation of the quality that is already on the grid.
Acknowledgement that races can be contested fiercely without the need for excessive quantities of overtakes.
Recognition that BTCC is circuit racing, and adheres to the principles of.
Acceptance that damage and repair bills are not conducive to healthy grids.

Once you realise that 2022 NGTC BTCC is not the same product of the S2000 and earlier regulations, and take the time to observe the efforts being put into the racing by teams and drivers up and down the grid, it soon becomes apparent that we don't have boredom processions, but a quality of racing that far exceeds a lot of want went previously.

Is it different to previous iterations? Absolutely. That does doesn't automatically make it worse. The type of racing we saw previously in the BTCC is now reserved for stadium racing. If that's what you want, absolutely fine. But in 2022 you will find it in a stadium, not on a circuit.

If people find that BTCC is boring because driving standards are higher, then it may no longer be the right product for them. But it's not a monopoly - there is the right product out there. But that probably means looking outside of the TOCA package.

[porsche962fan]

so you didn't specify a single measure to prevent boring processions as again major team boss and one if his drivers publicly stated the lack of overtaking

I dunno why they don't make races just 3 laps and call it chequered flag (specially race 1 ) as not much happnening beyond that an you can save costs this way