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Old 20 Sep 2022, 12:25 (Ref:4126580)   #1101
V8 Fireworks
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So you don't have info that the likes of Grove, BJR, Tickford and WAU will be equally involved in the mass production of Gen 3 parts as you didn't mention it?

That's a big worry that the production of parts will be unreasnably concentrated at PACE and 888.

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Manufacturers are not represented in GT3 - it's illegal.

Manufacturers develop GT3 vehicles to sell to CUSTOMERS, and make a profit doing so.
Yes, and the Australian teams could build GT3 (or TCR) cars and sell them *worldwide*! E.g., 888 could design and sell the official Camaro GT3 car, Grove could design and build the official Nissan Z GT3 car etc. That could create so much revenue!

Sure beats forcing Super2 teams to upgrade and buy Gen2 cars to create revenue, when the Super2 teams can't afford them and would rather stick to the trusty Gen1 cars. This latter choice seems a far less ethical business model.
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Old 20 Sep 2022, 13:32 (Ref:4126583)   #1102
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Who cares what the production car has? They can still race a V8 even if the car is electric.
If the car manufacturer does not want to have their car raced with an ICE what happens then? More importantly it seems fairly easy to assume that the four or two door sedan/coupe is just about dead anyway so where does that leave racing series such as SC?
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Old 20 Sep 2022, 21:44 (Ref:4126633)   #1103
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Came here to make a similar post.

The SC model is dying and will be replaced. The replacement may not yet be on the horizon but we all know it is lurking there waiting to be discovered. Maintaining the status quo is not a long term option, it will require a root and branch overhaul, possibly replacement by something entirely different.

There will be winners and losers, and the current ownership model is not conducive to that sort of revolutionaly change.
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Old 20 Sep 2022, 22:55 (Ref:4126637)   #1104
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Yes, and the Australian teams could build GT3 (or TCR) cars and sell them *worldwide*! E.g., 888 could design and sell the official Camaro GT3 car, Grove could design and build the official Nissan Z GT3 car etc. That could create so much revenue!
Pure, absolute fantasy. Not going to happen.

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If the car manufacturer does not want to have their car raced with an ICE what happens then? More importantly it seems fairly easy to assume that the four or two door sedan/coupe is just about dead anyway so where does that leave racing series such as SC?
So they don't then. Lots of manufacturers are promoting EV racing but nobody watches it.

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The SC model is dying and will be replaced. The replacement may not yet be on the horizon but we all know it is lurking there waiting to be discovered. Maintaining the status quo is not a long term option, it will require a root and branch overhaul, possibly replacement by something entirely different.
People have been making this claim for more than 20 years.

Yet the "dinosaur" has outlasted every other comparable racing category by a factor of 2 or 3 times.

Just like the decline of Rome lasted longer than the entire lifespan of any other society you could compare it to.
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Old 21 Sep 2022, 01:34 (Ref:4126645)   #1105
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So they don't then. Lots of manufacturers are promoting EV racing but nobody watches it.
No I did not mention BEV's at all the question is what does SC use when no one makes a sedan or coupe as has always been used in the past. At that stage there will be no US sourced sedan to base the series on only SUV styled cars and this is a trend worldwide. Not too far into the future the sedan will not exist in the US and Europe will only have a smattering of 2 door sports cars none of which could be remotely suitable and I can't see those manufacturers being even remotely interested as the cars have the engine at the wrong end of the car. I have said it before, reality is about to smack SC in the face in the not too distant future. It sems to me that the only thing SC and also NASCAR can do is invent their only generic bodies that are a race car and nothing else which would not be too hard but that goes against the ethos of racing recognisable cars that can sort of be related to road cars we can buy.
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Old 21 Sep 2022, 07:11 (Ref:4126656)   #1106
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.. and probably kills a lot of sponsorship dollars too.
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Old 21 Sep 2022, 13:29 (Ref:4126717)   #1107
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Pure, absolute fantasy. Not going to happen.
If the likes of Grove Racing and Tickford Racing don't back themselves to build better customer race cars than JAS Motorsport or M-Sport, what can you do?

Regardless the market is there to sell mass-produced customer GT3, TCR or Rally2 cars and exists. They could also invest in an autoclave and take on the likes of Oreca and Multimatic in the LMP2 and Formula 4 market. It's the perfect way to have machine, composite and fabrication shops ticking over with abundant work.
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Old 21 Sep 2022, 23:28 (Ref:4126774)   #1108
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.. and probably kills a lot of sponsorship dollars too.
Thinking a bit more about this, a tube frame with your choice of old/current style body (have to be some limits for a spec series), current engines (or some other spec engine(s)) might be a basis. Plenty of expertise here in building tube frames with plastic bodies, that's pretty much the current formula. The old Ford/Holden/whatever rivalries could be recreated/created and effectively make it a nostalgia series, with added on-track drama.

That would keep open the potential for support of one sort or another from manufacturers.

Recognise that road relevance is dying fast as a foundation for an ICE race series, and if you want to base it on road cars the only option available is to look back for inspiration.

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Old 22 Sep 2022, 02:15 (Ref:4126781)   #1109
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It is my understanding that any car design that SC uses must be OK with the owner of the design and this might present some hurdles to using retro designs when sedans fall totally off the planet. The only suitable car programmed to go through to the late 2020's is the Mustang and I would not bet on that as Ford have split the company into two entirely separate divisions and if the ICE division dies sooner then no more Mustang. Ford have made it very clear that they are getting out of the passenger car market and instead concentrating on the commercial BEV market along with sport trucks and they are selling everything they make. Stellantis have killed the Challenger and by all reports the Camaro is finished as well. The move away from the 4 door / 2 door sedan / coupe will force a big change in motorsport where that style of car has been the used for racing but I suppose the bright thing about all this is we are not there yet.
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Old 22 Sep 2022, 02:25 (Ref:4126783)   #1110
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... I suppose the bright thing about all this is we are not there yet.
Yes. Small consolation for us petrolheads, but we will take what we can where we can ...
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Old 22 Sep 2022, 10:59 (Ref:4126816)   #1111
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Stellantis have killed the Challenger
And just to rub it in the 300C Chrysler is now on the way out also.
https://www.autoweek.com/news/auto-s...odge-chrysler/

I hope the management have a plan but somehow I am sceptical that they do.
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Old 22 Sep 2022, 12:26 (Ref:4126825)   #1112
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And just to rub it in the 300C Chrysler is now on the way out also.
If you thought a 15 year old car on a 30 year old platform wasn't going to be on the way out at some point I've got a bridge to sell you!
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Old 22 Sep 2022, 13:08 (Ref:4126833)   #1113
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Manufacturers are not represented in GT3 - it's illegal.

Manufacturers develop GT3 vehicles to sell to CUSTOMERS, and make a profit doing
How much do Manthay buy their 911s for? Or WRT buy their Audi’s? How much did Msport buy their Msport-built Bentley’s for?

You’re smart enough to know that factory backing and works entries have been front and centre in GT3 racing for over a decade.
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Old 22 Sep 2022, 13:26 (Ref:4126837)   #1114
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If you thought a 15 year old car on a 30 year old platform wasn't going to be on the way out at some point I've got a bridge to sell you!
I agree but please let us know what SC's are going to use when sedans bodies are not available. You have picked out the obvious without advancing the discussion one bit.
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Old 22 Sep 2022, 13:48 (Ref:4126848)   #1115
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I agree but please let us know what SC's are going to use when sedans bodies are not available. You have picked out the obvious without advancing the discussion one bit.
Well EVs which are seen as the future of cars are almost exclusively sedans, there are comparatively few SUVs.

Clearly Supercars could just as easily be SUV bodies - all it takes is new bar work and body panels.

Plenty of stupid performance SUVs to go racing with. Body shape is irrelevant.
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Old 23 Sep 2022, 01:13 (Ref:4126922)   #1116
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Putting a V8 in an electric road car body should go down well with the manufacturer, using a V8 might be even more interesting especially in a SUV. Try asking Elon for permission to use his sedans as a base and putting a V8 in it, that would be a very interesting conversation.
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Old 23 Sep 2022, 02:59 (Ref:4126936)   #1117
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Getting farcical in here.

SUVs?

EVs?

With V8s?!

What are you smoking?
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Old 23 Sep 2022, 06:37 (Ref:4126944)   #1118
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Getting farcical in here.

SUVs?

EVs?

With V8s?!

What are you smoking?
Isn’t there a Tesla Sports Sedan being built, being powered by a Chev V8?
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Old 23 Sep 2022, 17:49 (Ref:4127025)   #1119
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Manufacturers are not represented in GT3 - it's illegal.
So GT3 teams like WRT, Walkenhorst, AF Corse, Sainteloc are racing purely on private money?
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Old 23 Sep 2022, 18:43 (Ref:4127032)   #1120
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The ACO had said that manufacturers will be involved, just not as an official factory entry:

"One of the biggest parameters is that we shall be looking at a category where the manufacturers cannot enter officially.

Because you have Hypercar, and we want to have good battles so one of the main topics is to prevent the manufacturers, the works cars, to enter the category. [...] When asked about how a factory-backed GT team such as Corvette Racing would enter Le Mans from 2024, ACO President Pierre Fillon told Sportscar365: “You have to ask the question to Corvette. They can come with amateur drivers and private teams."
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Old 23 Sep 2022, 19:48 (Ref:4127036)   #1121
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So GT3 teams like WRT, Walkenhorst, AF Corse, Sainteloc are racing purely on private money?
It would seem not. It's no secret that the likes of the Nurburgring 24 hour, DTM, IMSA GTD and so forth are full of unofficial manufacturer backed teams.

Anyhow, Mercedes have released the future of the performance car:

2023 Mercedes C63 S E-Performance
475hp 2.0L turbocharged four cylinder ICE
200hp hybrid system
675hp combined output
2115kg (+381kg from previous model)
https://www.pistonheads.com/news/AMG/C63/46224

Should Gen 3 have adopted this contemporary, market relevant direction?

The 6.0kWh battery is cooled by 15L of coolant for the battery cooling system -- some very impressive engineering!

I note Gen 3 has a provision for hybrid but they are not even using it yet, neither adopting market relevant 'downsize turbo' four cylinder engines yet either.

Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 23 Sep 2022 at 19:55.
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Old 24 Sep 2022, 04:01 (Ref:4127061)   #1122
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Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
It would seem not. It's no secret that the likes of the Nurburgring 24 hour, DTM, IMSA GTD and so forth are full of unofficial manufacturer backed teams.

Anyhow, Mercedes have released the future of the performance car:

2023 Mercedes C63 S E-Performance
475hp 2.0L turbocharged four cylinder ICE
200hp hybrid system
675hp combined output
2115kg (+381kg from previous model)
https://www.pistonheads.com/news/AMG/C63/46224

Should Gen 3 have adopted this contemporary, market relevant direction?

The 6.0kWh battery is cooled by 15L of coolant for the battery cooling system -- some very impressive engineering!

I note Gen 3 has a provision for hybrid but they are not even using it yet, neither adopting market relevant 'downsize turbo' four cylinder engines yet either.
Impressive engineering, yes.

But these 4 pot engines don't usually sound great even with some kind of performance exhaust systen!
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Old 24 Sep 2022, 04:03 (Ref:4127062)   #1123
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Isn’t there a Tesla Sports Sedan being built, being powered by a Chev V8?
I guess, as these are already basically Sports Sedans ...

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Old 24 Sep 2022, 13:54 (Ref:4127101)   #1124
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Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
It would seem not. It's no secret that the likes of the Nurburgring 24 hour, DTM, IMSA GTD and so forth are full of unofficial manufacturer backed teams.

Anyhow, Mercedes have released the future of the performance car:

2023 Mercedes C63 S E-Performance
475hp 2.0L turbocharged four cylinder ICE
200hp hybrid system
675hp combined output
2115kg (+381kg from previous model)
https://www.pistonheads.com/news/AMG/C63/46224

Should Gen 3 have adopted this contemporary, market relevant direction?

The 6.0kWh battery is cooled by 15L of coolant for the battery cooling system -- some very impressive engineering!

I note Gen 3 has a provision for hybrid but they are not even using it yet, neither adopting market relevant 'downsize turbo' four cylinder engines yet either.
Using hybrid is just adding cost and complexity and everyone is already screaming about costs when the engine is a stone age pushrod V8. I don't have any idea what the answer is but the blokes who forked out all the money for the keys to the door better start working on it and come up with a plan.
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Old 26 Sep 2022, 04:52 (Ref:4127445)   #1125
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So GT3 teams like WRT, Walkenhorst, AF Corse, Sainteloc are racing purely on private money?
Yes, factory teams are explicitly banned. GT3 is customer racing.

It's supposed to be the same in TCR too but then they allowed Cyan to have a complete 4 car factory team and they didn't sell a car to a real customer so...
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