Building a historic saloon race car

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

I removed the aluminium skinned doors from my car as they looked crap, and refitted steel factory doors.

I know your experience goes far beyond Tinas, Joe. On a std Capri door the most heavy parts seem to be the window and the window frame which weights tons and goes far into the door itself. Still, we have blokes drilling holes in the lower part of the door, here. They must have a lot of time in their hands…

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

I know your experience goes far beyond Tinas, Joe. On a std Capri door the most heavy parts seem to be the window and the window frame which weights tons and goes far into the door itself. Still, we have blokes drilling holes in the lower part of the door, here. They must have a lot of time in their hands…

Gerárd, back in the 60s , some of us went to extremes to reduce the weight of our cars, especially if we knew our engines weren't the most powerful on the grid.

When I stripped my Anglia down to a bare bodyshell, I spent hours filing down the heads of bolts as well as the height of the nuts. Anything to save even a pound (kilo) or two. Nearly all done whilst lying on my back on a damp, unheated and unlit, except by torch, lock-up garage floor in the middle of winter.

Of course, this was in the days before all the exotic materials came onto the market.

[midgetman]

We made a super leggera kart for one driver, lightweight bolts the works. One of my mechanics started drilling the hollow seat stays, but gave up when we pointed out he was letting the swarf fall down inside the stay so the weight was staying the same

With carbon everything possible, lithium battery, large chunks cut off the frame we managed to lose about 5kg - 6%.

Sent from my AC2003 using Tapatalk

[Gerard C]

I understand your point Mike, lightening is probably a matter of all or nothing. I raced a 911/ 964 and even the frame rails were drilled and the center part of the roof was in carbon fiber. It was a fantastic car to drive. If you have a powerful engine you make profit of it during half a lap, lightness you enjoy it all way round. That said, its a matter of cost, as on usual.

[GORDON STREETER]

My Anglia weighed in at 680kl with a tank of fuel when I had finished "adding lightness", but over the years it would had gained a "little" bit with the occasional application of P38

[markymar93]

Hi all. I am so grateful for all the comments. Apologise for not responding sooner but have not been able to respond. However, back now . I will have a read through tonight and i am sure will then post again. Thanks Mark

[markymar93]

Hi. Sorry for the lateness of the reply. I am building a 1965 volvo amazon 2 door. I was thinking of building to part k but worried that the car will just not be competitive in that format. Therefore i am wondering as mentioned previously to build as light as possible and then add weight to get it to the desired weight if i want to go part k route.

Originally Posted by zefarelly

In all seriousness, If we knew what the marque/model was we may be able to offer sensibe/daft suggestions in more detail.

They 2 big ones are Do you have a **** load of money to burn and do you want to be competitive.

If the answers are no and yes, in that order, you'll need a lot of time.

Many of us here have had a bit of success, spent lots of money and time.

What's changed significantly in recent years is the type of development, not just garagiste ingenuity but full blown modern racing technological advancements, which have rendered old cars irrelevant and uncompetitive.

I've said many times before, the spec of the cars and homologation details haven't changed for 50-60 years, but cars are continually getting faster. They look, measure, handle, go, stop, do everything, differently.

[zefarelly]

Well the VOlvo has a decent engine . . . . The MArcos saw to plenty of development, the 70's injection heads bolt on and flow much better, they're very strong, so a reliable 180 BHP is easy enough.

Not much you can do with a volvo body shell ? ? ?

I think its safe to say of you want to be competitive you need a brand new car, wind tunnel, shaker rig, all the bells and whistles Red Bull/BTCC style . . . . and depending on budget that will be mini, lotus cortina, yankV8, Alfa. The rest are just also rans.

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by markymar93

I was thinking of building to part k but worried that the car will just not be competitive in that format. Therefore i am wondering as mentioned previously to build as light as possible and then add weight to get it to the desired weight if i want to go part k route.

If you want to know for sure if it'll be competitive or not, have a look to the period results. If each race gives a Mini, Jag' Mk2 or L'Tina as a winner and that the best Amazon finishes tenth at best, logically, whatever you do to your Volvo legally you wont make it a front runner. Unless a special agreement with organizers (Goodwood for instance).



If I'm not clear above, what do you think could be invented now to improve its performance level that had not been found in period?



Not clear? You want a front runner? Easy to find which brand/model won every race/championship in period. No Volvo? Bad luck! Still you can have fun with it.

As Zef says, 180 hp for 1050 kilos is decent and I remember the handling was very good.

[VIVA GT]

I would have thought that the best aim is to have fun, enjoy racing the car that you want to race. Of course, the aim of any 'race' is to finish as close to the front as possible, but unless you have unlimited funds, and/or amazing driving ability this is unlikely to happen. (I write this as a non-athletic person who has regularly played squash for over 40 years. If I only wanted to win, I would have cut up my racquet into little pieces not long after I started, but I'm still playing, enjoying the challenge, the exercise, the banter, oh, and going to the pub afterwards!)

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

In all seriousness, If we knew what the marque/model was we may be able to offer sensibe/daft suggestions in more detail.

They 2 big ones are Do you have a **** load of money to burn and do you want to be competitive.

If the answers are no and yes, in that order, you'll need a lot of time.

Many of us here have had a bit of success, spent lots of money and time.

What's changed significantly in recent years is the type of development, not just garagiste ingenuity but full blown modern racing technological advancements, which have rendered old cars irrelevant and uncompetitive.

I've said many times before, the spec of the cars and homologation details haven't changed for 50-60 years, but cars are continually getting faster. They look, measure, handle, go, stop, do everything, differently.

To add to what Joe said and I'll be perfectly honest, I have been involved in motor racing both driving/riding and building cars and motorcycles for on and off road and tracks since the 60s, so I do know a "little" bit about it. You can throw as much money at a "sows ear" but you won't make a "silk purse"! Forget about "Goodwood Specials" that only appear once and are driven by a named front runner that has probably had a fortune spent on it, and have a rethink.
I have won a fair amount of races over the years, but only by using a known formula that others have followed with the front running cars. OK an oddball car might attract attention for a while, but if it's at the blunt end of the results after a few meetings you will soon wonder why you spent a fortune on it!
If you are satisfied with carrying on like that then go ahead as it's your money, and if there was a series for Volvo Amazons then that would be fine
Just to put things in perspective, to make my Anglia competitive it cost my sponsors (and me) more than my house cost in 1984 just for the engine!
Going back to the Amazon, I assume that you actually own one ? as it will be considerably cheaper to buy one already prepared and try and improve it, as most people involved in racing will tell you.

Whatever you decide good luck and I hope that you can prove us all wrong

[andy97]

Originally Posted by markymar93

Hi. Sorry for the lateness of the reply. I am building a 1965 volvo amazon 2 door. I was thinking of building to part k but worried that the car will just not be competitive in that format. Therefore i am wondering as mentioned previously to build as light as possible and then add weight to get it to the desired weight if i want to go part k route.

Might be better as a historic rally car, I think they were reasonably successful in that sphere.
https://www.bonhams.com/auction/2413...sis-no-345256/
Either way, might be worth trying to talk to a rally version owner to see what parts are available.
BTW, CSCC does not have a minimum weight limit for Swinging Sixties, build it as light as you practically can.

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by andy97

BTW, CSCC does not have a minimum weight limit for Swinging Sixties, build it as light as you practically can.

I think (like Colin Chapman) that weight is everything, as in the 60s Ford had a decent tuneable engine with lots of aftermarket parts that are still available today. Of the smaller Ford range it is interesting to see the curb weight of the range back then and why the Anglia and Cortina were/are successful in racing, and the Consul Capri and the Classic weren't
Consul Classic 940kg
Consul Capri 963kg
Anglia 737kg
Cortina 787kg

[morninggents]

I agree with what Gordon and Joe say.
If you look at the Historic Touring Car Technical Regulations on the HSCC website you will see that your Volvo Amazon could run in class K2 at homologated weight and with the modifications allowed in it's FIA homologation papers.
Alternatively, it could race in the HRSR classes at 890kg, including the weight of the driver (say 80kgs togged up), so, somewhere around 810kg for the car and use an engine up to 2100cc, provided such engine comes from the same Volvo 'family'. Therefore, it would seem to allow the B20 2 litre engine to be used.

[zefarelly]

I did an engine for a mates Amazon 123 GT a while back, a really nice road/rally car, quick enough, loads of torque, solid and comfortable. He toured France in it. He was not 80kg togged up when he got back

[GORDON STREETER]

I did manage to get the Anglia down to 680k ready to race including fuel. That's about 57k lost. When we used to be allowed an alloy roll cage it would have been even more. As the years of racing the same car went on it would have gained a bit of weight with a few applications of P38

[morninggents]

What would we all have done without P38.

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by morninggents

What would we all have done without P38.

A mate of mine used to keep some in his tow van along with aerosol paint ready Mind you I did do a quick radiator repair with some that lasted the race !
Getting back to lightweight parts for your race car, I made a complete full length exhaust system (after the manifold) complete with a repackageable silencer out of a light alloy that saved an enormous amount of weight.
Colin Chapman used to call it "adding lightness"

[markymar93]

Hi. As much as it would be nice to have a front runner, it is more important to have fun and to have a car that will help me to learn to race.
I think under part k i may struggle. It is an original ruddspeed tuned car, however, i dont think fia recognise the modifications ruddspeed did.
I did look at the hscc rules and if i build to there rules, i believe i can build the engine to a maximum of 2.4l? I have a custom head, forged pistons etc, which i could use to build an engine whilst i use the current engine. From what i know, i should be able to get 200bhp plus.
Am i right on the engjne rules?
Thanks mark

Originally Posted by Gerard C

If you want to know for sure if it'll be competitive or not, have a look to the period results. If each race gives a Mini, Jag' Mk2 or L'Tina as a winner and that the best Amazon finishes tenth at best, logically, whatever you do to your Volvo legally you wont make it a front runner. Unless a special agreement with organizers (Goodwood for instance).



If I'm not clear above, what do you think could be invented now to improve its performance level that had not been found in period?



Not clear? You want a front runner? Easy to find which brand/model won every race/championship in period. No Volvo? Bad luck! Still you can have fun with it.

As Zef says, 180 hp for 1050 kilos is decent and I remember the handling was very good.

[markymar93]

I am only assuming i could build to 2.4l as it would be to class b. Also, i would look to lose as much weight as possible. Are you allowed to lighten the body at all? The doors for example are extremely heavy.

[morninggents]

If you look at the Tech Regs of the HSCC Historic Touring Cars section on the HSCC website you will see all you need to know. Bonnet boot and doors may be lightened or substituted by ally or fibreglass replacements of the same shape.

The engine could be opened up to the class limit in class B.

[zefarelly]

I worked on a car that had a load of 'lightweight' GRP panels . . .they looked crap as they were so thing, and one bonnet (flip front of a GT car) actually weighed 2kg more than the factory GRP one.

It's not difficult to add lightness to factory panels, just a bit of thought and time. I got Cortina doors ( large) from 24.5kg ( ally skins than look bang average at best) to 17.5 with factory steel doors, and thats with winders, opening 1/4 lights and proper door card trim

[markymar93]

It is good to know these things can be done. I had a proper study of the regs today and i think we can make the volvo a good car and hopefully competitive.
Im too invested to look at alternative cars and it is also nice to have one that is not as common to see on the track.
Ideally i dont want to go fibreglass so going to look at clever ways as you mentioned above. We will get it down to the allowed weight. Better the car than me lol.

[terence]

Generally there are quite a few body brackets that will not be used on a Race shell.As we used to say iduring my BTCC time with Ray Mallock,"Nothing gets a free ride".
If it doesn't do anything,why keep it.

[markymar93]

That is a very good way of looking at it. Thank you.

Originally Posted by terence

Generally there are quite a few body brackets that will not be used on a Race shell.As we used to say iduring my BTCC time with Ray Mallock,"Nothing gets a free ride".
If it doesn't do anything,why keep it.