Robin Miller on Texas-style racing

[Jay]

Believe it or not, this is one of the most civilized sites when it comes to the CART-IRL debate, and not typical. Elsewhere the battle is as fierce as ever...that said most of it is just idiots pecking at idiots. If the most extreme fans on either side ran their series, open-wheel racing would be dead in US by now.

I don't care what series it is, the IRL (and IPS) has had an absolutely appauling safety record, and this year hasn't been much better. Maybe it's the type of racing, the tracks, the cars, but something has to be done before we get unlucky and a 1500 pound open-wheel car lands in a grandstand full of people. That could kill both series faster than Tony George, Chris Pook or any of the radical fans.

[gttouring]

in the event of an airborne car why not deploy airbags?
the side pods would hinged open and the car would get a raft like bumper inflate about it minimizing parts going every where and causing a less likely hooking into the fence... and flaps when they turn around to cause enough drag to keep them down ala NASCAR, it could be done, especially in the IRL when the cars are a bit heavier, and all oval racers
or maybe a drag chute when contact happens, driver deployed?

[Flatspot]

May it be that many of the tracks are obsolete or just not built safely enough for this type of racing.

What's wrong with raising the hard barriers & catch fences, moving the stands back and raising them to see over the new higher walls? The expensive seats are up high anyway. When I take my kids and they want to go low we always have the "its not safe" discussion.

I'm far from an engineer, but when Nascar was having a similar problem with "flying" the fix appeared quite simple by putting flaps through the lids that would open with negative pressure. I understand that the problem was caused by the lid. It seems to me however, that similar sealed openings could be placed in a flat bottom car with a sensor that could detect a sudden change in pressure and open the vents and avoid this flying effect. I also realize that this doesn't do much for tire climbing incidents but its a thought.

[evo]

Of course the flaps didn't really stop NASCAR guys from getting airborne.

[indycool]

I think the airborne issue is much too simplistic. As Racer69 pointed out, different elements were present in each of the flips.

Mario's was a "blowover" after hitting debris. From the video that went around the websites, you could see that the top of the fence caught his car and dropped it back on the race track and did its job.

On Brack's at Texas, they interlocked wheels. In looking at paul-collins' picture, the fence cables held because a wheel assembly is dangling from one of them and Gossage was quoted as saying a few small pieces made it into the stands. As far as driver safety, did the fence HURT Kenny? Or did the fence and car construction SAVE Kenny? Or did both happen? We'll never know.

Sadly, a look at Renna's. No video was shot, but a Channel 13 helicopter in Indy did some video of the aftermath. The video does not go back to any marks which would show the start of the crash. It DID show tire marks going to within 30-40 feet of the barrier/fence.

The video showed one fence post down and the fence on either side of it. The cables are loosened, but intact. It showed the handrail to the walkway in front of the stands down and a couple "planks," for lack of a better term, on the track side of the walkway damaged. It doesn't show anything in the grandstand but if there was, it could've been removed before the video was shot, but track officials said nothing got up there.

How did this accident start and what caused the car to become airborne? Without any video, it's sketchy at best, at least for those of us on the forums. There were reports of grass strewn on the track in Turn 3, which would indicate he got off on the grass for some reason. Did something on the left front corner break to pull him into the grass? When he may have tried to "catch" it, did the car "hook," meaning the weight shifted from the right front corner to the left front corner and shot right?

If it did, did it hook so violently that it overturned and "bounced" into the fence? We don't know. What attitude did the car strike the fence -- front, rear or side? We don't know. Would the result have been different if the car had hit the SAFER barrier instead of the fence? We'll never know.

But the airborne part, in each of these accidents, was likely caused by something else, and something different in each one. Contrary to what Miller's piece is intended to show (and that's a REAL big question in itself), airborne is not the issue. In Brack's case, they locked wheels. Sprint cars can lock wheels, CART cars and F1 cars can. Motorcycle racers can lock wheels. And when that happens, the vehicles are prone to flip. The fact that they became airborne is a result of something, not a cause.

[Fogelhund]

http://www.tsn.ca/auto_racing/irl/ne...uto_racing-irl

According to Ron Green, director of public relations for Indianapolis Motor Speedway parts did make it into the stands. How much is open to debate, do you believe the early reports, or what Green says? What is spin, what is not?

That the first row of the stands was damaged is worrying.

That there were three completely different causes that resulted in these cars becoming THAT airborn, is likely worse then if it was one cause. It would appear that there are a number of circumstances that could lauch these cars into the stands.

[Flatspot]

Indycool, I actually think you're correct about the airbourne thing, at least in the analysis that each accident was quite different on why the car took air. You are also correct that sprint cars, F1, even fendered cars get airbourne.

This brings me back to my original question of... Is it the tracks? Although, concrete is hard it can be dealt with in a variety of ways. It seems that the worst accidents, at least as far as destruction of the car,cockpit and debris spread, have occured when getting up in the fence. It seems to make sense to work on containing them in the confines of the "hard bowl". I say this not just for the drivers but also with spectators in mind.

[indycool]

Fogelhund, thanks for the link....I've been trying to find those stories other posters have referred to.

Whoever wrote those Ticker stories didn't see the video the same way I did, as the camera stayed on it live for several minutes and it was replayed countless times later.

In reviewing it again, I see the same thing I saw originally. A post for the handrail in front of the grandstand walkway was knocked down and a couple of "planks," maybe measuring a couple of feet across, of the trackside of the walkway were obviously damaged. Nothing I see in the video shows damaged grandstand seating.

It's like when we discussed cables in paul-collins' posted photo of the Brack incident. The cables are there and apparently did their job because a wheel assembly is hanging from one.

Flatspot, understand your point. Some talk about Brack's accident as if the fence acted like a "cheese grater," but I don't think that was the case. The decimation of the car occurred when he hit the gate post and the databox recorded it at 200 Gs.

If Brack or Renna had "stayed down," and hit the concrete wall (or SAFER barrier at Indy), would the results have been worse or better? The wall's certainly harder than the fence but probably the fence posts have a different effect. But the angle of hitting it could and probably would be different and could pose more or fewer threats. That's not something anyone can answer and we'll certainly never know in these two cases because there's nothing to compare them with.

I imagine there'll be a lot of computer generations that only engineers will understand as they try to figure this out, but some things will always remain a mystery.

I have thoughts of the United Airlines plane flown by a soon-to-be-retired pilot that lost its hydraulic system some years ago. He called in on the radio asking what to do and nobody knew with that type of catastrophic failure. So, they improvised and a dead-heading pilot who happened to be a passenger worked the throttle and they fought the thing to try to land it with that alone. It was an absolutely heroic effort. They crashed in Sioux City, Iowa, some tragically perished but many lived.

I talked to a friend of mine who was a captain for another airline shortly after that and he told me all of its pilots went into simulators to recreate it and try to save it. All of them, he said, crashed in the "sim" far worse than the ill-fated plane did.

Which is an example of the fact some things wind up remaining a mystery. And whatever the answers are today will lead to new questions tomorrow.

[macdaddy]

After what happened to Greg Moore, I'm surprised that any ovals have grass skirts at all.

[Mal]

Flatspot, your point would probably reduce the chance of spectator casualties by containing the debris on the track and as such is a very valid point, but would it be safer for the driver? I dont know the answer and I guess it would depend on the point of impact between the car and the fence / wall. Greg Moore's tragic accident showed what can happen if an airbourne car hits concrete at the wrong angle.

[Hazza]

indycool, i remember that, something about a fan cracking and shards going into the hydrolic wires or soemthing?

anyway, racing is dangerous, but you have to look at it abstractly and say "is there a way to make this safer while keeping the spirit intact?", I'd say if they fool around with the engine specs and aero yes, but i'm not an engineer.

finaly whats the difference between a NASCAR race at Daytona and an IRL race?

Bumpers and a rollcage.

[rustyfan]

Originally posted by Hazza
finaly whats the difference between a NASCAR race at Daytona and an IRL race?

Bumpers and a rollcage.

The rollcage won't do you much good if you get up into the fence though (to relate it to the crashes by Brack and Renna), as the cage - and car for that matter - will be sliced open like a can of beans if you hit it at the wrong angle.

While Geoffrey Bodine was extremely lucky to survive his encounter with the Daytona tri-oval fence in 2000, Russell Phillips wasn't as fortunate at Charlotte in 1995 when he went roof-first into the fence after getting involved in a turn 4 pile-up. The impact instantly shredded the roof, rollcage and the better part of Phillips' upper torso due to the shallow angle by which his car hit the fence (as opposed to having a more straight-on angle).