The Future of F3 - Page 10

JackN · 23 Mar 2012, 09:05 (Ref:3046982)

Some of these ideas are crazy. I love them, but goodness it's crazy.

Firstly, you can't just GET live terrestrial TV. You think BF3 choose for their highlights to be on at 6.30 on a Saturday morning on Channel 4? The only way I can see more mainstream exposure for some of our biggest championships is if Sky Sports F1 starts to pick up other motorsport. Only then will it make it mildly sponsor appealing.

Single seater costs don't NEED to be as high as they are now. I dont want to bring F2 in to it, but it definitley proves you can run fast, reliable cars for a fraction of an F3 budget. I'm not saying F2 is the future, but it should at least be looked at as an example of cost saving.

Finally, the tracks. Modern cars have outgrown UK circuits. Undoubtedly. Silverstone and Donington may provide some decent racing for 500bhp monsters, but that's all. Brands, Snetterton, Cadwell Park, Castle Combe, Rockingham, Knockhill? All not suitable. Unless you have very little aero and make them like monster formula fords, which defies any plan to make them relevant to F1.

davyboy · 23 Mar 2012, 10:05 (Ref:3047005)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackN

Some of these ideas are crazy. I love them, but goodness it's crazy.

Firstly, you can't just GET live terrestrial TV. You think BF3 choose for their highlights to be on at 6.30 on a Saturday morning on Channel 4? The only way I can see more mainstream exposure for some of our biggest championships is if Sky Sports F1 starts to pick up other motorsport. Only then will it make it mildly sponsor appealing.

Single seater costs don't NEED to be as high as they are now. I dont want to bring F2 in to it, but it definitley proves you can run fast, reliable cars for a fraction of an F3 budget. I'm not saying F2 is the future, but it should at least be looked at as an example of cost saving.

Finally, the tracks. Modern cars have outgrown UK circuits. Undoubtedly. Silverstone and Donington may provide some decent racing for 500bhp monsters, but that's all. Brands, Snetterton, Cadwell Park, Castle Combe, Rockingham, Knockhill? All not suitable. Unless you have very little aero and make them like monster formula fords, which defies any plan to make them relevant to F1.

Well, unlike 20 years ago when there were very few terrestrial channels, I think you actually can 'GET' live terrestrial TV today. You just have to pay for it, like TOCA do. If the package is good, then the viewing figures will come. In my mind, the ideal package would be a 60 or 90 minute programme mid afternoon featuring :

o One 20 minute touring car race.
o One 20 minute BF5000 race.
[possibly o One 20 minute GT race.]

This would be a lot better than the 7 hour telethon we have at the moment and would bring in many more casual viewers. You know the telethon could be run elsewhere - Motors TV or something - that way fanatics like us could continue to do damage to our domestic relationships by hogging the TV all day ha ha ha :-) It would also be good to have a short 30 minute magazine programme mid week during the season.

But concentration is the one of the keys though. Instead of having a multitude of different events all competing against one another, we have 8 or 10 of these premier weekends. Heavy heavy promotion should be given to these with mainstream advertising, massive PR, making stars out of the participants by getting them to appear on other TV programmes etc... Big on-line presence etc... The MSA should treat everything outside of these weekends as 'club motorsport' and devote its resources accordingly.

As kick start, another idea would be to approach corporate blue chips with a view to giving them subsidised exposure on each car. So for example, you could have the Kelloggs team, with Kelloggs emblazened over everything... there would then follow tertiary marketing that could be gained from point of sale in supermarkets, on the back of Corn Flakes boxes etc... Though NASCAR doesn't need to subsidize such backing, it benefits enormously from the secondary exposure.

In terms of the circuits, I'm not sure I agree. I think Brands, Thruxton, old Snetterton, Knockhill... even Mondello could provide very exciting racing for these machines. There might be safety issues with speeds involved, and the unwieldy and less predictable nature of the cars... and that might well dictate where they could visit, but from a racing perspective I think these are legendary tracks. They've given us legendary racing in the past... and they can do it again.

Oh... and as I said earlier, there is no need for these to be of any relevance to F1. There are already too many junior formulae that do that.

Can you imagine the impression left on a 10 year old kid after having seen and heard 24 of these 200mph racing cars being driven by contemporary stars...

ivanalesi · 23 Mar 2012, 11:47 (Ref:3047046)

The exciting racing is very important, so I have no idea how "F1 relevant" F5000 would work on some of these tracks. So the easiest way is to reinvent back, in other words - ban wings

A big 500bhp FFord will be awesome to watch with some spec tires and super nice exhaust setup.

Flavio Galtieri · 23 Mar 2012, 12:02 (Ref:3047051)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ivanalesi

The exciting racing is very important, so I have no idea how "F1 relevant" F5000 would work on some of these tracks. So the easiest way is to reinvent back, in other words - ban wings

A big 500bhp FFord will be awesome to watch with some spec tires and super nice exhaust setup.

Some of these ideas are all starting to remind me of Peter Wardle's ill fated "Challenge" initiative which was scheduled to start in 2006.

There's a thread on it under Powercar challenge I believe.

JackN · 23 Mar 2012, 12:03 (Ref:3047053)

Quote:

Originally Posted by davyboy

Well, unlike 20 years ago when there were very few terrestrial channels, I think you actually can 'GET' live terrestrial TV today. You just have to pay for it, like TOCA do. If the package is good, then the viewing figures will come. In my mind, the ideal package would be a 60 or 90 minute programme mid afternoon featuring :

o One 20 minute touring car race.
o One 20 minute BF5000 race.
[possibly o One 20 minute GT race.]

But now your cost-saving-cheap-formula is starting to get a bit expensive, isn't it. TOCA have some of the most expensive grids in the country, and as a result, can afford it. If you're having a low-cost formula, live TV on a terrestrial channel is just not a viable option.

davyboy · 23 Mar 2012, 12:43 (Ref:3047074)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackN

TOCA have some of the most expensive grids in the country, and as a result, can afford it. If you're having a low-cost formula, live TV on a terrestrial channel is just not a viable option.

For 10 events [each containing three races] I've heard that TOCA pay ITV around £2M/year... but I stand corrected on that. For now, let's assume that's what it is though. And let's assume that's funded by just the two series - Touring Cars and BF5000. Let's also assume that there's only one 20 minute race for that. Let's also assume each series can muster a grid of 20 cars and let's assume the competitors must pay for it. That equates to £50K/car... or £5K/car/race. That's not a lot of money and of the entire season's budget, probably the best value element of it.

edenrace · 23 Mar 2012, 12:51 (Ref:3047081)

I think we are getting away from The Future Of F3 .....in 1983 Senna/ Brundle average grid 14.....1999 Button/Narain first race had 17 cars.....do not remember big discussions re the future of F3 and lets reinvent everything then. Oh and they did not have GP3 and other equivalent series to contend with then. F3 is in an OK position and if drivers cannot afford £550,000 to race in it then they will not be able to afford the £900,000 for World Series or the £2,000,000 for GP2

Richard B · 23 Mar 2012, 18:39 (Ref:3047205)

Is it time to stop worrying about the future of F3, the cost of F3, what it should be replaced with etc etc and start talking about the British 2012 season which starts in 2 weeks...time for a new thread?

Flavio Galtieri · 23 Mar 2012, 20:10 (Ref:3047237)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard B

Is it time to stop worrying about the future of F3, the cost of F3, what it should be replaced with etc etc and start talking about the British 2012 season which starts in 2 weeks...time for a new thread?

Why don't you start one then? I'm quite enjoying this thank you.

**chunterer** · 23 Mar 2012, 22:09 (Ref:3047295)

There's no problem with suitable circuits for powerful racing series in the UK. Jack dismissed a few that are totally viable.

There's 2 variants of Silverstone, Donington, Brands, Rockingham long circuit, Oulton, the New Snetterton. Besides there always Zandvoort, Spa and Zolder close enough to UK to add? That's enough venues for a major domestic series.

Go_For_Pole · 24 Mar 2012, 07:39 (Ref:3047395)

Quote:

Originally Posted by edenrace

... if drivers cannot afford £550,000 to race in it then they will not be able to afford the £900,000 for World Series or the £2,000,000 for GP2

Nice to see Bruno Michel's school of thought catching up

trevisio · 8 Apr 2012, 10:30 (Ref:3055253)

I have followed F3 since the days of McNish, Brabham and Steve Robertson. I used to enjoy following it back then, when it was more of a sport and less of a business.

What is the purpose of Formula 3 now? What is it trying to achieve?

Is it supposed to purely be about finding a great driver for Formula 1? If so, why make it so prohibitively expensive to enter for the vast majority of drivers?

Or is it about Dallara and 3 or 4 teams making as much money as possible?

Or is it a bit of both? Because if it is, these 2 goals are mutually exclusive and conflict with each other massively.

It apparently costs a driver 550k to do F3. How much is Sainz spending compared to Jack Harvey this year?

Do not even think about putting it on live TV at present, as the races are mind numbingly boring because of the ridiculous aero vs. power equation and only about 2 good drivers + 10 rich kids.

It doesn't need to be like this - expensive and processional races - but who is going to do anything to change the Status Quo?

All that happens is rival championships pop up now and then, but F3 itself as a formula could be so much better. However, as with any change, there would be a risk that the likes of Carlin and Fortec would suddenly not have the most competitve drives and lose income......

davyboy · 8 Apr 2012, 12:44 (Ref:3055330)

Quote:

Originally Posted by trevisio

F3 itself as a formula could be so much better.

For whatever reason, that's the point that appears to be lost on all the ostriches involved in F3 at the moment. A real pity.

Sun 1 · 9 Apr 2012, 15:14 (Ref:3055844)

The main problem of all those single seater series is the running cost..... how much is a UK F3 series now? 1m Pounds...? Pffff this is a joke....
Take out all those Data logger, bull**** on the cars and you will see the amount of expensive staff in the team decreasing ....so will the budget.
Tyres....same problem, Bull****, manufacturer can make a tyres last two stints in Le Mans and those Little car must spend 4-5 sets/event?? who makes the money in here??
Fancy trucks in the Paddock, who pays ? the team owner ? LOL no, the drivers pay for those ****....

This is just a matter of time before this dies, like in France, there is no more National single seater series except F4.

QUOTE=JackN;3046982]Some of these ideas are crazy. I love them, but goodness it's crazy.

Firstly, you can't just GET live terrestrial TV. You think BF3 choose for their highlights to be on at 6.30 on a Saturday morning on Channel 4? The only way I can see more mainstream exposure for some of our biggest championships is if Sky Sports F1 starts to pick up other motorsport. Only then will it make it mildly sponsor appealing.

Single seater costs don't NEED to be as high as they are now. I dont want to bring F2 in to it, but it definitley proves you can run fast, reliable cars for a fraction of an F3 budget. I'm not saying F2 is the future, but it should at least be looked at as an example of cost saving.

Finally, the tracks. Modern cars have outgrown UK circuits. Undoubtedly. Silverstone and Donington may provide some decent racing for 500bhp monsters, but that's all. Brands, Snetterton, Cadwell Park, Castle Combe, Rockingham, Knockhill? All not suitable. Unless you have very little aero and make them like monster formula fords, which defies any plan to make them relevant to F1.[/QUOTE]

edenrace · 9 Apr 2012, 15:37 (Ref:3055855)

Wrong about budget £500,000 for 30 races and 25 test days is cheaper per mile than many others, wrong about data loggers these are fitted to the most basic race car, wrong about tyres only 2 sets allowed per 3 race weekend.

Sun 1 · 9 Apr 2012, 15:52 (Ref:3055860)

he main problem of all those single seater series is the running cost..... how much is a UK F3 series now? 1m Pounds...? Pffff this is a joke....
Take out all those Data logger from the cars and you will see the amount of expensive staff in the teams decreasing ....so will the budget.
Tyres....same problem, manufacturer can make a tyres last two stints in Le Mans and those Little car must spend 4-5 sets/event?? who makes the money in here??
Fancy trucks in the Paddock, who pays ? the team owner ? LOL no, the drivers pay for those useless trailers....

This is just a matter of time before this dies, like in France, there is no more National single seater series except F4.

Firstly, you can't just GET live terrestrial TV. You think BF3 choose for their highlights to be on at 6.30 on a Saturday morning on Channel 4? The only way I can see more mainstream exposure for some of our biggest championships is if Sky Sports F1 starts to pick up other motorsport. Only then will it make it mildly sponsor appealing.

Single seater costs don't NEED to be as high as they are now. I dont want to bring F2 in to it, but it definitley proves you can run fast, reliable cars for a fraction of an F3 budget. I'm not saying F2 is the future, but it should at least be looked at as an example of cost saving.

Finally, the tracks. Modern cars have outgrown UK circuits. Undoubtedly. Silverstone and Donington may provide some decent racing for 500bhp monsters, but that's all. Brands, Snetterton, Cadwell Park, Castle Combe, Rockingham, Knockhill? All not suitable. Unless you have very little aero and make them like monster formula fords, which defies any plan to make them relevant to F1.[/QUOTE]

EastonNeston · 9 Apr 2012, 16:59 (Ref:3055893)

To quote "Edenrace"
"Wrong about budget £500,000 for 30 races and 25 test days is cheaper per mile than many others, wrong about data loggers these are fitted to the most basic race car, wrong about tyres only 2 sets allowed per 3 race weekend. "

You will actually find full data logging systems in club level karting! Sun 1 a lot of your claims have already been disproved, so there is no point in repeating your inaccurate statements.

davyboy · 9 Apr 2012, 17:53 (Ref:3055915)

Quote:

Originally Posted by EastonNeston

To quote "Edenrace"
"Wrong about budget £500,000 for 30 races and 25 test days is cheaper per mile than many others, wrong about data loggers these are fitted to the most basic race car, wrong about tyres only 2 sets allowed per 3 race weekend. "

You will actually find full data logging systems in club level karting! Sun 1 a lot of your claims have already been disproved, so there is no point in repeating your inaccurate statements.

I'm not sure that's quite what Sun 1 means here, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong Sun 1.

EastonNeston is right. The Mychron 4 system, complete with all it's GPS bells and whistles, is a very powerful piece of kit used extensively in karting these days. I've used it myself ! However in karting, the suite is used by and large to improve one's lap by driving rather than by changes to the kart. Don't get me wrong, there is of course setting up involved in karting, but it's nothing in comparison to F3... and a good driver will be able to drive around most problems in a kart with a reasonable set up.

On the other hand, trimming the previous or current Dallara is a highly skilled activity. When you factor in that teams like Carlin are using the data they acquire to modify the car in wind tunnels etc... then you're in a completely different [financial] ballpark.

So it's not so much the ability to acquire data that's the issue... it's how that's data's used.

strider · 9 Apr 2012, 19:09 (Ref:3055956)

The complete electronics system on all FIA-recognised F3 engines is supplied by Bosch and doesn't come cheap, but it does supply a mine of information. It was introduced because certain manufacturers were to be attempting to use traction control or a start launch system on their engines.

edenrace · 9 Apr 2012, 21:20 (Ref:3056060)

Davyboy, you really must get your facts right, the 2012 regulations restrict aero development so much that to utilise a wind tunnel has such a minor effect as to be pointless.I suggest you check out the 2012 regs from the FIA website and you will see how much work has been done by Ostriches to contain costs and to ensure smaller budget teams can compete on an equal basis.

Sun 1 · 10 Apr 2012, 02:48 (Ref:3056156)

LOL 500.000 for a season with 25 days testing... in which team??

Data Logger, YOU are wrong, its not really the cost of the logger that counts but the cost of all those guys around the car to read it!
Tyres: Ok, not bad...
Fancy Trucks: what's you answer on that ??
AND I am not talking about those 2.0 ridicilous engines that develop "only 230-240 BHP" for a fortune.....

Like i said, it just a matter of time before this dies like did the F-Renault UK series....

Quote:

Originally Posted by EastonNeston

To quote "Edenrace"
"Wrong about budget £500,000 for 30 races and 25 test days is cheaper per mile than many others, wrong about data loggers these are fitted to the most basic race car, wrong about tyres only 2 sets allowed per 3 race weekend. "

You will actually find full data logging systems in club level karting! Sun 1 a lot of your claims have already been disproved, so there is no point in repeating your inaccurate statements.

peebee2 · 10 Apr 2012, 06:21 (Ref:3056186)

Theres plenty of misleading here.

Yes, two sets of tyre per race weekend. BUT that doesn't include the free practice. At Oulton used 2 sets alone in that session.

Yes Bosch FIA electronix only 20k, but top teams use piggyback systems in private testing on top.

Both top teams have also been in the wind tunnel this year. And on rigs

EastonNeston · 10 Apr 2012, 06:51 (Ref:3056191)

Sun 1 & PB2,

perhaps instead of been aggressively negative you share your proposals to improve the situation, that keeps the series compliaint with the FIA regulations for F3.

strider · 10 Apr 2012, 20:55 (Ref:3056767)

Quote:

Originally Posted by peebee2

Theres plenty of misleading here.

That's true of this entire thread, but I can't be bothered to be specific except about tyres.

Yes, it's two sets for the race weekend, but there is another specific number of tyres available for testing. How the teams use them is up to them.

Read the Regulations before flailing around with wild comments!

Richard B · 12 Apr 2012, 19:58 (Ref:3057992)

Formula 3 to race at Cadwell Park..
An interesting story?
http://www.thisislincolnshire.co.uk/...ail/story.html

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