$5 Million IndyCar Challenge at Las Vegas

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by gttouring

So what then just let USAC silvercrowns run the indy 500?
To be mature and maintain what is part of racing there is always death all sports face crippling and deadly injuries, Forge ahead and make it all excellent don't run from tragedy- learn from it.

No, there needs to be a serious rethink. I love the mix of tracks in US open wheel racing but the current situation, with the IRL cannot continue.

Not in anyway detracting from Dan Wheldon's tragic death, IndyCar was/is losing TV audiences and crowd attendances; it's dying. The IRL have proved themselves useless in attracting audiences and sponsors from the outset.

Tony George has won the war but at what cost.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

To be honest, I feel IndyCar is in it's death throws, just like Champ Car and the sad fact is Dan Wheldon's death is a reflection on the state of US open wheel racing; ill thought out, gimmicky and time it was ended as far as the IRL is concerned.

Time for another White Paper.

The sport was previously driven into the ground by people obsessed and blinded by the indy motor speedway. It was brought back to life by people who could see the big picture.

Time for the hulmangeorges to go back to running their much diminished little empire in indiana and let a Professional organization take over.

Wee little tony george's experiment has failed. Accept it and push for change.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Time for another White Paper.

The sport was previously driven into the ground by people obsessed and blinded by the indy motor speedway. It was brought back to life by people who could see the big picture.

Time for the hulmangeorges to go back to running their much diminished little empire in indiana and let a Professional organization take over.

Wee little tony george's experiment has failed. Accept it and push for change.

What other recourse is there?

[rantanamo]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I just don't think you and others are getting the big picture.

We all might get it. But the irl doesn't get it, never has and never will. The facts over 15 years prove that out. Time for people to stop thinking tony george and the hulman clan is as smart as they are.

The indy racing league DOES NOT GET IT. Period. They no hear you.

Sorry, but I read statements like this and I cringe.

First of all, there is no IRL anymore. That sanctioning body is gone and is now called IndyCar. Tony George is not involved anymore.

To say they don't get it is extremely insincere. If they don't get it, then why was this the last race in IRL chassis? Why did they form the ICONIC committee? Why did they create the passing line on street courses to prevent Jeff Krosnoff type incidents? Why did they create the design requirement of a higher downforce undertray, more upright seating position, further back seating position, real wheel guarding body work, multiple engine manufacturers, down graded horsepower oval formula. Why have they been talking for two years about what they will do with the oval formula. Why have they been fighting to race on short ovals?

If anything, IndyCar does get it and ironically, it was Dan Wheldon who was the test driver for the 2012 car that most likely prevents his own death in 2011. Unfortunately 2012 was too late for Dan, but its just plain insincere to sit and say IndyCar doesn't get it, when all they've done since they've gone away from the IRL is work on creating a safer environment for their drivers. Have they made mistakes? Yes, but they aren't the first one nor will they be the last ones.

[gttouring]

True enough IndyCar is trying but they move at slugs pace, when they have avoid solution why wait to use it? Safer barriers went up almost evrywhere as soon asthey were seen as good...catchfence? Those stop sheet metal and wheels but even carl Edwards tore one up.. these things needed fixing 50 years ago

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

No, there needs to be a serious rethink. I love the mix of tracks in US open wheel racing but the current situation, with the IRL cannot continue.

Not in anyway detracting from Dan Wheldon's tragic death, IndyCar was/is losing TV audiences and crowd attendances; it's dying. The IRL have proved themselves useless in attracting audiences and sponsors from the outset.

Tony George has won the war but at what cost.

I don't think he really won anything but it cost him everything. By all reports the hulman george fortune is all tied up in the speedway, much of the wealth previously built up over decades, now sold off, divested or burned up. It's known the irl has been a losing entity of the speedway, burning up over $20 million a year, every year since 1996. Even the speedway itself has cut jobs, closed associated businesses, etc. It's why you've seen tony's lazy bum sisters suddenly startle with notice as there might not be much left to party on, finger paint and fart around on toy ranches for much longer.

Usually there is the original patriarch that gets the fortune rolling, a 2nd generation that really kicks it into gear, a 3rd generation that maintains the status quo and milks it and a 4th generation that has no connection to the original fortune or principles that made it as such and they whizz it all away. The hulmangeorges are on the last tier wide spread generation with everyone with their hand out. How much wealth creation did you see tony george engage in for instance over the past 20 years, as in actually creating successful profitable businesses? None!

It was said the speedway attracted a $1 billion offer in the 1990's. People I've talked to that would know said that now $200 million would be all it could pull in this economy as the place isn't making money due to brickyard 400 revenues committing suicide, huge expenses from the F1 experiment and the irl sucking on the teat.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by rantanamo

Sorry, but I read statements like this and I cringe.

First of all, there is no IRL anymore. That sanctioning body is gone and is now called IndyCar. Tony George is not involved anymore.

To say they don't get it is extremely insincere. If they don't get it, then why was this the last race in IRL chassis? Why did they form the ICONIC committee? Why did they create the passing line on street courses to prevent Jeff Krosnoff type incidents? Why did they create the design requirement of a higher downforce undertray, more upright seating position, further back seating position, real wheel guarding body work, multiple engine manufacturers, down graded horsepower oval formula. Why have they been talking for two years about what they will do with the oval formula. Why have they been fighting to race on short ovals?

If anything, IndyCar does get it and ironically, it was Dan Wheldon who was the test driver for the 2012 car that most likely prevents his own death in 2011. Unfortunately 2012 was too late for Dan, but its just plain insincere to sit and say IndyCar doesn't get it, when all they've done since they've gone away from the IRL is work on creating a safer environment for their drivers. Have they made mistakes? Yes, but they aren't the first one nor will they be the last ones.

Excellent, cringing is fine and it's usually the result of reality biting hard.

To me it will always be the irl. You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

tony george is lurking in the background, HE has been reinstated to the board and this was his abomination he created. He is fully involved in the current meddling as he is a member of the board again of the hulman company.

I'm not going to argue it again. I have laid out the case here and in other threads why they don't get it. The facts of their lack of success are there to see. If you choose to reject those facts of their poor performance, that is up to you. I can lead you to the water, but I do not have any kool aid on offer. OH YEAH!

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by rantanamo

Sorry, but I read statements like this and I cringe.

First of all, there is no IRL anymore. That sanctioning body is gone and is now called IndyCar. Tony George is not involved anymore.

To say they don't get it is extremely insincere. If they don't get it, then why was this the last race in IRL chassis? Why did they form the ICONIC committee? Why did they create the passing line on street courses to prevent Jeff Krosnoff type incidents? Why did they create the design requirement of a higher downforce undertray, more upright seating position, further back seating position, real wheel guarding body work, multiple engine manufacturers, down graded horsepower oval formula. Why have they been talking for two years about what they will do with the oval formula. Why have they been fighting to race on short ovals?

If anything, IndyCar does get it and ironically, it was Dan Wheldon who was the test driver for the 2012 car that most likely prevents his own death in 2011. Unfortunately 2012 was too late for Dan, but its just plain insincere to sit and say IndyCar doesn't get it, when all they've done since they've gone away from the IRL is work on creating a safer environment for their drivers. Have they made mistakes? Yes, but they aren't the first one nor will they be the last ones.

IRL/IndyCar it's the same bad people running it, but with Ropin' Randy on board and he's doing a reasonable job in the face of adversity.

Tony George is back on the board of directors.

As for the ICONIC committee, why didn't they chose Lola as a chassis manufacturer? Lola have/had a far better racing heritage than Dallara will ever hope to, plus Lola came up with the idea of aero kits and their design allowed for a universal tub for both IndyCar and Indy Lites.

The IRL/IndyCar never got it, what with poor crowd attendance and limited TV coverage; a bad product, marketed badly, run by bad people.

IndyCar was never a spec series.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by gttouring

True enough IndyCar is trying but they move at slugs pace, when they have avoid solution why wait to use it? Safer barriers went up almost evrywhere as soon asthey were seen as good...catchfence? Those stop sheet metal and wheels but even carl Edwards tore one up.. these things needed fixing 50 years ago

There are tons of advances in polycarbonates and other materials that would at least absorb some energy before Cheese Grater on the other side. Even with Cheese Grater the car still ends up back on track anyways.

What you don't see is the irl admitting they have a big problem and then seeking some way to resolve it. The big booty irl cars are still going to be pack racers.

I don't have every exact answer or technology, but at least CART would look at how to improve energy absorbing materials on the car, safety of it's monocoques, driver safety equipment, track safety and so on. At least in CART you didn't have to worry about their full time safety team running you over going reverse track direction and that they were fully equipped to respond in a massive accident. Alex Zanardi would not be here today if that was an irl race. Full Stop. Would not be here today.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Alex Zanardi would not be here today if that was an irl race. Full Stop. Would not be here today.

Totally agree.

[christcc2]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Totally agree.

+1 to that. God bless the CART safety crew. Best there ever was in AOWR.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I think there's even more reason now, to look at what made CART successful, as far as the racing is concernned and take that and apply it to IndyCar.

I remember IndyCar pre split and from a racing/safety aspect it worked well and improved vastly under CART.

IF someone had died in the much vaunted U.S. 500 cluster-f, would you still make this rather lame claim- yeah you probably would.

USAC/CART/IRL took open wheel racing and crapped all over it, period.
The "Oh wasn't CART so wonderful" chants are bs that have nothing to do with this racing accident.
I am actually slightly amazed/amused that that worn out hackneyed cry was brought up again, but sore losers never change.

It is racing and people die in racing, always have and always will.
Others wise the Swiss have the only solution.

[skells22]

I have notice that 2 former big name open wheel drivers have slam the nascar driver and defended the ovals! I with the open wheel guys here.

[davyboy]

o Dan Wheldon's car went airborne.
It should not have.

o The track was lined with 'protective' catch fencing that may be protective to the crowd but is lethal to a driver.
It should be protective to both.

If Indycar can correct each of these problems, then the chances of repeating this tragedy will have been reduced. If Indycar is unable to correct them, then the series needs to forgo visiting an oval again until it has.

Let see what Indycar does.

[Paradise City]

At what point was the roll-hoop sheared off? Was it the catchfencing or some point before or after he hit the catchfence?

[nickyf1]

Catchfence, i'm sure of it. The car came back down onto the ground upside down and bounced up into the catch fence hoop first.

[nickyf1]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Alex Zanardi would not be here today if that was an irl race. Full Stop. Would not be here today.

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you there. Strongly.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

IF someone had died in the much vaunted U.S. 500 cluster-f, would you still make this rather lame claim- yeah you probably would.

USAC/CART/IRL took open wheel racing and crapped all over it, period.
The "Oh wasn't CART so wonderful" chants are bs that have nothing to do with this racing accident.
I am actually slightly amazed/amused that that worn out hackneyed cry was brought up again, but sore losers never change.

It is racing and people die in racing, always have and always will.
Others wise the Swiss have the only solution.

Nothing to do "Oh wasn't CART so wonderful" or sore losers. The reason no one diead at Michigan was due to a wider track and run off into the infield. At LVMS there was no where for 34 cars to go if there was a pile up, plus those Reynards etc. never took off like the Dallara does.

[D_Marshall]

I read somewhere about a suggestion to replace the catch fencing with a toughened perspex barrier. I think it was Paul Tracy that came up with it and i think, if it was feasible, then it would be a great idea. Cars wouldn't be able to get caught up in the fence which is the cause of a lot of serious accidents. I suppose the main questions would be is it tough enough to withstand the possible impacts and how much would it cost?

[jhansen]

Question from a (very) fringe follower of indycar. What is the safter alternative to catch fencing?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by jhansen

Question from a (very) fringe follower of indycar. What is the safter alternative to catch fencing?

Perspex has been mooted as has increasing the height of the wall. It's only since the cars have ben taking off and flying into the catchfencing has catchfencing itself come into question. Before the Dallara came along the cars didn't take off like this.

This footage shows how susceptible these cars are to taking off and in this example it hit some debris on the track,not another car.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMeE9NAh60I

[awegrzyn]

Take a look at this picture:

http://amazingnotes.com/wp-content/u...n-accident.jpg

This ain't no racing.

[davyboy]

Racing cars should not be airborne like that. Period. It's perfectly possible to stop this happening. Looking at this another way... if a car can get that high, it can clear the catch fencing and end up the crowd. If dozens of spectators had perished along with poor Dan at LVMS on Sunday, we would be discussing the very future of motor racing in the United States. But for the grace of God are we not in that situation.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by nickyf1

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you there. Strongly.

Yes, the tub is in fact the old Dallara's strong suit. The tub saved Brack as much as the underside of the car almost claimed him. The Mario flip of 2003 should've been the warning.

Cars won't get airbourne with the new Dallara.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

Cars won't get airbourne with the new Dallara.

Hopefully Dallara will produce footage of what happens when the car rides up over something at 225mph.