|
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
17 Oct 2022, 21:55 (Ref:4130652) | #226 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,578
|
Quote:
Agree - the FIA will need to get this absolutely right - no doubt there'll be people unhappy with whatever the outcome is but as long as the FIA can justify decisions and be both reasonable if needed and firm if needed, then the organisation should come out of it looking like a good governing body. Remains to be seen of course & personally I think that leaks in advance are not a good sign that governance is in order. |
|||
__________________
“We’re far from having too much horsepower…[m]y definition of too much horsepower is when all four wheels are spinning in every gear.” ― Mark Donohue |
18 Oct 2022, 00:03 (Ref:4130661) | #227 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 4,496
|
Quote:
If things aren't resolved, then the FIA position becomes very precarious as regulator. Z Brown said that 2020 was a pre-run through the technicalities so everyone knew what to expect and that there shouldn't be any surprises, which is in contrast to Christian Horner's surprise... |
||
|
18 Oct 2022, 00:09 (Ref:4130662) | #228 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,578
|
Quote:
If RB does end up in breach, then sanctions will need to be meaningful - otherwise temptation will be too much for others. |
|||
__________________
“We’re far from having too much horsepower…[m]y definition of too much horsepower is when all four wheels are spinning in every gear.” ― Mark Donohue |
18 Oct 2022, 12:17 (Ref:4130700) | #229 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,553
|
Quote:
|
|||
|
18 Oct 2022, 13:18 (Ref:4130712) | #230 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 11,077
|
Quote:
* by creative I mean cheating. |
||
|
18 Oct 2022, 13:57 (Ref:4130720) | #231 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 547
|
What I find interesting is that it seems they have done a dress rehearsal in 2020 so most issues could be clarified and questioned.
I still think RB found what they believed to be a loophole and did not disclose it so not to give same opportunity to their rivals. And now they will need to provide arguments for it. Mind you if they were so sure about it - what is to say they have not done the same for this year as well? - imagine having same thing coming up in October 2023 as well - we might need to have a special Financial Certificate Award day |
||
|
18 Oct 2022, 13:59 (Ref:4130721) | #232 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 18,692
|
Usually if a car doesn't confirm to the regulations due to something going wrong with the car, or a team error they will be DQed and no more. However if they are found to have done something deliberately against the rules, there is a chance the FIA will take it further
|
|
__________________
He who dares wins! He who hesitates is lost! |
18 Oct 2022, 15:03 (Ref:4130734) | #233 | ||||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,949
|
Quote:
as fans we are, within reason, allowed to think and say what we want so fair play. personally i hope they are exonerated of being deliberately creative as i would hope for every team on the grid who find themselves operating near the margins...as i hope for every team in every sport i watch. no doubt that makes me naïve but i honestly dont think i would be able to watch if i believed cheating within this sport was as rife as some here always claim it to be. Quote:
|
||||
__________________
Home, is where I want to be but I guess I'm already there I come home, she lifted up her wings guess that this must be the place |
18 Oct 2022, 18:14 (Ref:4130752) | #234 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 6,395
|
Unfortunately all legal fees/costs are specifically excluded from the budget cap.
|
||
|
18 Oct 2022, 19:51 (Ref:4130763) | #235 | |||||
Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,578
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
|||||
__________________
“We’re far from having too much horsepower…[m]y definition of too much horsepower is when all four wheels are spinning in every gear.” ― Mark Donohue |
19 Oct 2022, 01:12 (Ref:4130778) | #236 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 8,088
|
Did Adrian Newey’s salary cause Red Bull to breach F1 cost cap?
https://www.crash.net/f1/news/101475...newey-s-salary If this is the cause of the breach, it is just playing games with accounting definitions. The bigger question is where this "breach" was leaked to Wolff from within the FIA. |
|
|
19 Oct 2022, 01:35 (Ref:4130780) | #237 | ||
14th
1% Club
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 44,018
|
The biggest thing about this is that the cap was breached and the biggest question is what will be done about it.
The rest is a smaller matter. |
||
__________________
Brum brum |
19 Oct 2022, 03:37 (Ref:4130785) | #238 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 6,395
|
So to me it seems that Red Bull have shot themselves in the foot by allowing Newey to work on a (full time) consultancy basis. No doubt to help him taxwise.
In doing so they have included Newey as being one of the top 3 earners so (on that basis) have rightfully not included his earnings in the budget cap. However the FIA have said that Newey although full time employed at Red Bull (or more likely RBT) he is not employed BY them as he is an external consultant. Thus on that basis his earnings should be part of the budget cap as he is not strictly an employee of the Red Bull Group. His compansy is used as a consultancy. So in effect Newey's costs should be included as an external but related cost... but by the same token the next highest earner would move up to become the third highest RB/RBT earner and be deducted. Thats how I see it but very happy to be corrected. |
||
|
19 Oct 2022, 07:04 (Ref:4130791) | #239 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 547
|
I also imagine Newey has quite a high salary maybe in the millions - so if his consultancy was not considered as part of the cap by the team - and FIA says it should be as they used an external company - how is the breach just minor? I mean I do not know F1 salaries but imagine someone like Newey might be in the 5-10 million range if not more?
Again these are all speculations and probably we will find out more - on summer bank holiday next year |
||
|
19 Oct 2022, 07:30 (Ref:4130796) | #240 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 12,483
|
Quote:
For example: Assume that Newey was receiving the same as his previous (full-time) F1 salary of $10.25m. The next highest earner in the Red Bull team might be on $4m and was previously included in the budget. The total spend was exactly on the cap of $145m. $145m - $4m = $141m. $141m + $10.25m = $151.25m. The overspend is now $6.25m and considered 'minor'. |
|||
__________________
"When you’re just too socially awkward for real life, Ten-Tenths welcomes you with open arms. Everyone has me figured out, which makes it super easy for me." |
19 Oct 2022, 07:43 (Ref:4130798) | #241 | ||||
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 6,395
|
Quote:
Quote:
On that basis the 'overspend' would therefore potentially be less than the $6.25.mill |
||||
|
19 Oct 2022, 07:50 (Ref:4130799) | #242 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 12,483
|
Quote:
If they were comfortably below the cap and had Newey's salary was in their assumed exclusions, then it is even easier to see how the breach is minor. The example figures could be amended to: Assume that Newey was receiving the same as his previous (full-time) F1 salary of $10.25m. The next highest earner in the Red Bull team might be on $4m and was previously included in the budget. The total spend was comfortably below the cap of $145m and was close to $140m. $140m - $4m = $136m. $136m + $10.25m = $146.25m. The overspend is now $1.25m and considered 'minor'. As I said - it is just an example of how such a high salary could still result in a minor overspend - which was the question asked by PhilipR. I am not suggesting that these are the actual figures. |
|||
__________________
"When you’re just too socially awkward for real life, Ten-Tenths welcomes you with open arms. Everyone has me figured out, which makes it super easy for me." |
19 Oct 2022, 08:02 (Ref:4130800) | #243 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 6,395
|
Quote:
|
|||
|
19 Oct 2022, 08:06 (Ref:4130801) | #244 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 12,483
|
Quote:
Agreed - we are all trying to fill in the blanks at the moment. |
|||
__________________
"When you’re just too socially awkward for real life, Ten-Tenths welcomes you with open arms. Everyone has me figured out, which makes it super easy for me." |
19 Oct 2022, 09:46 (Ref:4130805) | #245 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 18,692
|
It's interesting if they weren't using Newey as full time staff.
|
|
__________________
He who dares wins! He who hesitates is lost! |
19 Oct 2022, 10:22 (Ref:4130808) | #246 | |
Racer
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 333
|
Newey also had his accident last year, wonder if that brought about a sudden contract change as for a while no-one seemed to be sure how active he still would be?
I also wonder if the sickness issue is around Newey too for the same reasoning. |
|
|
20 Oct 2022, 14:53 (Ref:4130893) | #247 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 18,692
|
That's a good point. Maybe you've just given Red Bull a good defence!
|
|
__________________
He who dares wins! He who hesitates is lost! |
21 Oct 2022, 08:12 (Ref:4130944) | #248 | |
Racer
Join Date: Jun 2020
Posts: 481
|
Interesting that the main car related breach seems to be over the transfer of old parts to the heritage team. Something that the FIA issued a clarification to three months after the teams submitted their documents.
I do find the opinions of some on social media that the overspends on catering and staff sick pay gave RB a competitive advantage. Their reasoning is that they would have pulled money from the car to pay the other bills. Big assumption. It's a bit like assuming someone would not pay their mortgage to go on holiday. The other thing I find odd is all the bleating from other teams that a minor breach is still a massive performance advantage. I don't recall them complaining when the FIA originally brought out the definition of minor breaches at the start of the cost cap. |
|
|
21 Oct 2022, 08:37 (Ref:4130945) | #249 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 18,692
|
Seems the FIA are ready to make a deal with Red Bull over the breach:
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/r...ment/10387108/ This is very similar to how the dodgy Ferrari engine situation was sorted a few years ago. Not going to please other teams this |
|
__________________
He who dares wins! He who hesitates is lost! |
21 Oct 2022, 08:42 (Ref:4130948) | #250 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,886
|
Quote:
Isn't it obvious that if they spent more of their overall budget on anything, regardless of whether it catering and/or sick pay (C & SP), then it stands to reason that it meant that they spent more on their car. Using imaginary figures, if their budget was $145 million and out of that they allocated $5 million to C & SP leaving $140 mill for the car, but they actually spent $10 mill on C & SP, it means that they should have reduced spending on the car to $135 million. And the second point was that one of the team principles used their calculations to explain how much a certain amount of money could or would result in a certain amount of a speed increase or lap time reduction. |
|||
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Salary Cap For V8SC Drivers?? | GTRMagic | Australasian Touring Cars. | 20 | 1 Dec 2015 03:26 |
V8's hit with a Salary Cap | ozrevhead | Australasian Touring Cars. | 33 | 14 Dec 2006 06:31 |
...Salary Cap for v8 Drivers..post your top $ figure... | retro | Australasian Touring Cars. | 15 | 13 May 2006 06:40 |
Engineers Salary | g_conaty | Racing Technology | 6 | 25 Oct 2002 01:55 |
V8 salary???? | bingman | Australasian Touring Cars. | 25 | 11 Oct 2002 22:46 |