[BTCC] Brands Hatch 6/7 May 23, Rounds 4/5/6

[hen henths]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

over the last five years name those cars and drivers that have had the boost changed once or twice every year apart from those two i mentioned

This is what I found with a quick search. You already mentioned the Subaru. I seem to remember there being other examples but I could be wrong.

https://www.autosport.com/btcc/news/...38540/4438540/

https://www.autosport.com/btcc/news/...49311/4449311/

https://www.autosport.com/btcc/news/...62775/4462775/

https://www.autosport.com/btcc/news/...86294/4986294/

https://www.autosport.com/btcc/news/...78901/4978901/

Edit: Sorry, that's over more than five years, but that was your condition, not mine.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by hen henths

This is what I found with a quick search. You already mentioned the Subaru. I seem to remember there being other examples but I could be wrong.

https://www.autosport.com/btcc/news/...38540/4438540/

https://www.autosport.com/btcc/news/...49311/4449311/

https://www.autosport.com/btcc/news/...62775/4462775/

https://www.autosport.com/btcc/news/...86294/4986294/

https://www.autosport.com/btcc/news/...78901/4978901/

Edit: Sorry, that's over more than five years, but that was your condition, not mine.

so in ten years (thats nearly 300 cars) you found 5 examples
one was the unique lpg cars one was pre season and one was teams asking for changes (but no actual change)

so only two real examples of mid season changes in ten years other than the scoobies and new toca engine I mentioned

not much is it?

[hen henths]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

so in ten years you found 5 examples
one was the unique lpg cars one was pre season and one was teams asking for changes (but no actual change)

so only two real examples of mid season changes in ten years other than the scoobies and new toca engine

not much is it?

OK fine. I'm willing to admit I might have developed an exaggerated impression of how often it happens. I did think there were other instances but I'm not going to trawl the web for hours looking for examples. I think part of it is my not realising just how many years have gone by.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by hen henths

OK fine. I'm willing to admit I might have developed an exaggerated impression of how often it happens. I did think there were other instances but I'm not going to trawl the web for hours looking for examples. I think part of it is my not realising just how many years have gone by.

There's other examples, but they don't always become public knowledge.

[antnee]

Boost levels are adjusted during a season, but it usually only becomes public knowledge when a team or driver mentions it during an interview

[Pdh]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Why would TOCA adjust boost levels? Everybody seems to be saying the Ford chassis is on rails and that's not power

I have to agree with you here looking at the speed traps at Brands Hatch there wasn’t one focus topping the speed traps in any of the 3 races which is showing how good the focus is round the corners. It’s actually the Hyundai’s that are topping most speed traps in the races

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

since 2015 you found 5 examples that have been publicised.
one was the unique lpg cars one was pre season and one was teams asking for changes (but no actual change)

so only two publicised examples of mid season changes in eight years other than the scoobies and new toca engine I mentioned

FTFY

Here's the reality....

Boost calculations were introduced with the NGTC regulations for the 2011 season as a rolling system by car/chassis.

In 2012, the teams agreed to a tweak of the lap time-based turbo boost adjustments for competing cars in 2013 onwards:

The amount of change would be reduced;
Boost adjustments would be applied to either individual drivers not per car type/chassis as in 2012;
The frequency in which the adjustments are calculated was to reduce from the 'rolling two-event' average.

The regular in-season adjustments where then dropped for the 2015 season onwards, but adjustments still continued to be made after rounds 9 and 18 each season (and as and when required by the administrator).

In 2018, this changed again to be a continual review of boost levels, with adjustments made as soon as required (by the administrator).

As to the exact number of adjustments that have been made - you would need access to the TOCA technical bulletin system to confirm, and that information is not in the public domain.

What is definite though is that significantly more adjustments than the ones you refer to have been implemented.

[S griffin]

I certainly prefer the hybrid boost system to the weight penalty. At least it's easier for teams to get round it and still be competitive.

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by peebee2

There's other examples, but they don't always become public knowledge.

Don't start the conspiracy theory again! There is absolutely no proof to support this

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Don't start the conspiracy theory again! There is absolutely no proof to support this

Take the following line from an article related to BTCC boost adjustments published in 2017:

'Usually, any turbo boost adjustments are made to cars after each three rounds, once data has been analysed by BTCC technical bosses.'

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

FTFY

Here's the reality....

Boost calculations were introduced with the NGTC regulations for the 2011 season as a rolling system by car/chassis.

In 2012, the teams agreed to a tweak of the lap time-based turbo boost adjustments for competing cars in 2013 onwards:

The amount of change would be reduced;
Boost adjustments would be applied to either individual drivers not per car type/chassis as in 2012;
The frequency in which the adjustments are calculated was to reduce from the 'rolling two-event' average.

The regular in-season adjustments where then dropped for the 2015 season onwards, but adjustments still continued to be made after rounds 9 and 18 each season (and as and when required by the administrator).

In 2018, this changed again to be a continual review of boost levels, with adjustments made as soon as required (by the administrator).

As to the exact number of adjustments that have been made - you would need access to the TOCA technical bulletin system to confirm, and that information is not in the public domain.

What is definite though is that significantly more adjustments than the ones you refer to have been implemented.

you really think that if some drivers and teams had their boost changed during the season that they would not have told their fans or media? its complete nonsense to think that all the hundreds of people who work for the teams would not have leaked out that info

thats straight into the conspiracy theory again

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

you really think that if some drivers and teams had their boost changed during the season that they would not have told their fans or media? its complete nonsense to think that all the hundreds of people who work for the teams would not have leaked out that info

thats straight into the conspiracy theory again

OK - so if the fact that TOCA has gone on record to state that adjustments are 'usually made after each three rounds', and Gow has said that 'We look at all the data and make assessments as necessary. If there’s a tweak that’s necessary, it gets done.' still means the adjustments are a conspiracy theory, then there is little else that can be said?

In 2019 alone, every car was subjected to a change in boost level during the season with changes being made after rounds 9 and 15.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

OK - so if the fact that TOCA has gone on record to state that adjustments are 'usually made after each three rounds', and Gow has said that 'We look at all the data and make assessments as necessary. If there’s a tweak that’s necessary, it gets done.' still means the adjustments are a conspiracy theory, then there is little else that can be said?

In 2019 alone, every car was subjected to a change in boost level during the season with changes being made after rounds 9 and 15.

your exactly underlining my point

they put that option into place and announced it publicly so there is no cloak and daggers about their ability to do it

so show me how many times they have actually used that option to make some drivers and cars less or more competitive. the only example you gave is when they adjusted EVERY car to reduce lap times

[antnee]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

you really think that if some drivers and teams had their boost changed during the season that they would not have told their fans or media? its complete nonsense to think that all the hundreds of people who work for the teams would not have leaked out that info

thats straight into the conspiracy theory again

Drivers and teams HAVE told the media and fans about it.

Why do you think there is always lots of discussion about boost levels?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

so show me how many times they have actually used that option to make some drivers and cars less or more competitive. the only example you gave is when they adjusted EVERY car to reduce lap times

The problem is that the majority of bulletins are not releasable to the public. It is just something that you can choose to accept or not.

You've been informed that a lot of the changes are not made public, and team members abide by that direction. If you continue to not accept that fact, there is nothing else that anyone can post here to the contrary.

• Changes are notified to competitors via bulletin.
• The press has reported on how often these changes usually occur.
• Gow has confirmed that when changes are required, they are made.

Feel free to dismiss it as 'conspiracy', but you are only deluding yourself.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

The problem is that the majority of bulletins are not releasable to the public. It is just something that you can choose to accept or not.

You've been informed that a lot of the changes are not made public, and team members abide by that direction. If you continue to not accept that fact, there is nothing else that anyone can post here to the contrary.

• Changes are notified to competitors via bulletin.
• The press has reported on how often these changes usually occur.
• Gow has confirmed that when changes are required, they are made.

Feel free to dismiss it as 'conspiracy', but you are only deluding yourself.

i deal in facts

and that fact is that they have publicly clearly stated they would make changes if necessary so they are not hiding from that

and the fact is that they have not done so other than the small examples mentioned otherwise they would have announced it

so why would they hide them if they have already publicly announced they would make changes when necessary and issue it in bulletins

your consiparcy theory is that there are lots of boost changes going on behind the scenes yet not one driver or team manager or team owner (past or present) has said thay have had it done to them other than those examples given

if it makes you happy then you keep believeing your nudge nudge wink wink conspiracy theory and I will keep believing in the facts

have a nice day

[hen henths]

Oops what a wriggly big can o' worms I seem to have opened here!

As I said I do seem to have vague recollections of other instances of boost adjustments being discussed or possibly alluded to.

For example I have a memory of Neal in a TV interview years ago talking about the Dynamics Hondas being off the pace in a sort of resigned philosophical way, like this is where we are at the moment, which I guessed could have been alluding to boost levels but I admit that's conjecture on my part. Unfortunately I have no practical way to find what year that was or exactly what was said.

[antnee]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

i deal in facts

and that fact is that they have publicly clearly stated they would make changes if necessary so they are not hiding from that

and the fact is that they have not done so other than the small examples mentioned otherwise they would have announced it

so why would they hide them if they have already publicly announced they would make changes when necessary and issue it in bulletins

your consiparcy theory is that there are lots of boost changes going on behind the scenes yet not one driver or team manager or team owner (past or present) has said thay have had it done to them other than those examples given

if it makes you happy then you keep believeing your nudge nudge wink wink conspiracy theory and I will keep believing in the facts

have a nice day

Not a fact. TOCA do make changes and drivers do grumble about it.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by antnee

Not a fact. TOCA do make changes and drivers do grumble about it.

ok then show me the facts of where or when they made boost changes to some cars during the season without it being public knowledge

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by antnee

Drivers and teams HAVE told the media and fans about it.

Why do you think there is always lots of discussion about boost levels?

No they haven't they have wined about it and nodded and winked to suggest their performance is just about getting shafted

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

ok then show me the facts of where or when they made boost changes to some cars during the season without it being public knowledge

You need to define what you mean by that.

If you mean where changes are made without TOCA releasing the details publicly, then that would apply to all the changes since TOCA only release those details via a Technical Bulletin to the teams which isn't publicly available.

If you mean where changes are made but the team/driver do not publicly talk about those changes, then it would be impossible to supply those details since they have never been made public.

[antnee]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

ok then show me the facts of where or when they made boost changes to some cars during the season without it being public knowledge

Go and trawl through the TV footage of the last 5-7 seasons, you will find plenty of drivers mentioning it.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by redshoes

You need to define what you mean by that.

If you mean where changes are made without TOCA releasing the details publicly, then that would apply to all the changes since TOCA only release those details via a Technical Bulletin to the teams which isn't publicly available.

If you mean where changes are made but the team/driver do not publicly talk about those changes, then it would be impossible to supply those details since they have never been made public.

they made a couple of boost changes during the last two years and publicly acknowledged them

so those are the facts

and all you can rely on is the old wink wink nudge nudge conspiracy theory and cannot back it up with any facts

[Greem]

Please stop. None of this is adding any useful information to the thread.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by antnee

Go and trawl through the TV footage of the last 5-7 seasons, you will find plenty of drivers mentioning it.

there are always drivers complaining they have not got enough power or another car has too much power

that happens in all series

but show me where a team or driver has said they had their boost turned up or down and toca have not acknowledged it publicly