Parity Review Has Been Called

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Mixer

I do hope Ford leave, if for no other reason that utter one eyed sooks like you leave the sport for good.

Fords were among the quickest cars in the races at SMP and passed more cars than anybody else but you didn't notice because you're too busy whining.

That's a case of "pot kettle black" if ever I've heard one and unlike you I don't want either make to leave, I just want closer racing........I like the camaro.

[GTRMagic]

Everyone keeps talking down the series for pleasure..
if Ford goes, and GM has nobody to play with, what would be the next step..?

The ultimate privateer cup

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Everyone keeps talking down the series for pleasure..
if Ford goes, and GM has nobody to play with, what would be the next step..?

The ultimate privateer cup

Exactly, one has to wonder if supercars are unknowingly plotting their own demise???

[Ares]

If the prof of parity in this class is Mustangs winning, you are expecting a lot of stars to align in this current climate. You are expecting ford drivers to not only beat a team that has hit the ground running with this new car, with two drivers who can be very quick on their day, and they have had a few days this year. Then they have to beat the benchmark team in pitlane who just so happens to have arguably one of the best tin top drivers in the world at present. He has had a bit of an up and down year so far, obviously chassis issues have been a problem. If Shane didn't stuff up qualifying on Saturday he'd of most likely walked both races. No other driver on the weekend could match Shane's race stats. Then he has a teammate. Truth is, this year both Chaz and Cam could have been looking around for scraps even in Chevs. Taking penalties out of things, Mustangs could have taken three of the six podium spots last weekend. Fact is, if Mustangs start winning regularly in this current climate something has gone horribly wrong.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Ares

Fact is, if Mustangs start winning regularly in this current climate something has gone horribly wrong.

If it means competition between the two makes on the track then I would say that it means that something has gone wonderfully right.

[Ares]

Originally Posted by bluesport

If it means competition between the two makes on the track then I would say that it means that something has gone wonderfully right.

That is not what it's about. If you are going to just keep going until Ford starts to win a shear of the races in this climate, then you are operating a team-driver parity class. The Ford drivers and teams are going to keep going until they start winning. The Fords teams and drivers are not good enough to beat the top Chev talent at present. Sorry, but that is just a fact.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Ares

That is not what it's about. If you are going to just keep going until Ford starts to win a shear of the races in this climate, then you are operating a team-driver parity class. The Ford drivers and teams are going to keep going until they start winning. The Fords teams and drivers are not good enough to beat the top Chev talent at present. Sorry, but that is just a fact.

I don't care about any of that garbage that you are going on about, I want a reason to watch supercars and they are not providing a reason.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Ares

The Fords teams and drivers are not good enough to beat the top Chev talent at present. Sorry, but that is just a fact.

It's not a fact, that's the point of contention.

Apparently the likes of BJR, Team18 and Matt Stone Racing are amongst the most skilled in pitlane now...

That's the whole point of contention: would the Mustang teams -- the 2nd best through 5th best teams in the 2022 teams championship -- be doing better if they had the (potentially superior?) Camaro bodywork and engine package?

I.e., are the two Gen 3 packages equivalent, so that the choice of package being run -- be it Chevrolet or Ford -- has no effect on a team's performance??

[Ares]

Originally Posted by bluesport

I don't care about any of that garbage that you are going on about, I want a reason to watch supercars and they are not providing a reason.

The garbage I talk about are just the facts as they stand right this minute, not yesterday, today. What has changed for you since 2019 and the Penske cheater Mustang? you were very happy with one ford winning in 2018 2019 2020. Just one car was all you needed. as long as it comes first you couldn't careless where any other Fords came. Nine Fords in the top ten from P2 down you would be crying from the roof tops. One Ford winning and all the rest at the back of the field you are a happy little man. I have a trick for you, something I have done through my life when I have needed too. I stand in front of a mirror and look at myself and think through thing that are going on at the time. There were a few times I didn't like what was looking back. Then you make a change. Try it. It takes about 5mins you may need ten, oh you will need to remove those thick glasses.

[Ares]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

It's not a fact, that's the point of contention.

Apparently the likes of BJR, Team18 and Matt Stone Racing are amongst the most skilled in pitlane now...

That's the whole point of contention: would the Mustang teams -- the 2nd best through 5th best teams in the 2022 teams championship -- be doing better if they had the (potentially superior?) Camaro bodywork and engine package?

I.e., are the two Gen 3 packages equivalent, so that the choice of package being run -- be it Chevrolet or Ford -- has no effect on a team's performance??

Parity as of today is very close now. When a new car arrives there is always a period when things move around. This year is different from 2022 as one team has been out 888ing 888 to this point, and they are also a Chev team. Shane has not dominated like last year. Cam and Chaz have had less scraps to pick up this year from the last season. Erebus has had an impact. As well as the parity earlier in the year. At the moment for a Ford driver to win races, he needs to be at 100% and a number of other drivers to not be at 100% on the day. Or the Ford needs to be a faster car than the Chev. And that my friend is where this is heading. All we hear is what the Ford drivers don't like, what about what the Chevs drivers don't like in their new cars? Have a think about this, what would have happened if Penske had run Holdens? No Ford wins for a longtime.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Ares

The garbage I talk about are just the facts as they stand right this minute, not yesterday, today. What has changed for you since 2019 and the Penske cheater Mustang? you were very happy with one ford winning in 2018 2019 2020. Just one car was all you needed. as long as it comes first you couldn't careless where any other Fords came. Nine Fords in the top ten from P2 down you would be crying from the roof tops. One Ford winning and all the rest at the back of the field you are a happy little man. I have a trick for you, something I have done through my life when I have needed too. I stand in front of a mirror and look at myself and think through thing that are going on at the time. There were a few times I didn't like what was looking back. Then you make a change. Try it. It takes about 5mins you may need ten, oh you will need to remove those thick glasses.

The so called "cheater mustang" was cleared to race by supercars so how could they be cheaters? Let's face it you and Mixer are just anti ford and you would probably be happy with a series comprising solely of camaros.

[Compromised]

Originally Posted by Ares

Shane has not dominated like last year

That's the thing though - Shane IS a dominant driver, in arguably the best car run by the best team. So what's changed? Well, T8, in developing the Camaro have not only built a great package, they've given it to over half the field!

[Mixer]

For the numpties.

Parity does not mean equal wins.

It means an equal chance of winning if the team does everything right.

Right now there is an imbalance and even in identical cars no current Ford team is the equal of 888 or Erebus.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Mixer

For the numpties.

Parity does not mean equal wins.

It means an equal chance of winning if the team does everything right.

Right now there is an imbalance and even in identical cars no current Ford team is the equal of 888 or Erebus.

You just use those types of arguments because you are anti ford.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by bluesport

You just use those types of arguments because you are anti ford.

I'm just not.

Grove and WAU are awesome teams.

WAU has one of the best drivers on the grid, even if he's not top tier. Their second driver though is an utter disappointment and isn't contributing to the success of the team, so WAU isn't up the front with 2 cars.

Grove has built an incredible team with some very capable people and have showed flashes of brillaince, but they have one of the most inconsistent and moody drivers on the grid, paired with a rookie, in a year with a brand new car and the closest competition there has ever been.

DJR and Tickford are both supposed to be benchmark teams, but Tickford doesn't have a single driver who is free of preventable errors, nor can they execute strategy or pit stops in order to win a race.

DJR seem to be lost in the wilderness and incapable of extracting performance out of the car that they built, let alone handing other teams a car capable of winning.

You can attempt to argue against facts if you wish to, but the simple fact is you don't want parity - you want charity.

[chavez]

Originally Posted by Mixer

For the numpties.

Parity does not mean equal wins.

It means an equal chance of winning if the team does everything right.

Right now there is an imbalance and even in identical cars no current Ford team is the equal of 888 or Erebus.

It might mean that in theory, but never in practice dating back to the first parity change in '93 when the hapless Holden teams were given a leg-up at the expense of DJR and GSR.

[Ares]

Originally Posted by bluesport

The so called "cheater mustang" was cleared to race by supercars so how could they be cheaters? Let's face it you and Mixer are just anti ford and you would probably be happy with a series comprising solely of camaros.

The cheater Mustang was signed off by the same people who signed off this seasons cars, Hello. 2019 was the largest disparity in parity the class has seen. No car in its history has had as much of a shave back as that car. Evidently Rodger hit the roof with Boeing delivered the wing endplates, the jet engines had been removed. When the Mustang hit the track in 2019 many of the mid pack Ford drivers were suddenly running at the front the top ten, it didn't seem to be an issue back then? But now it is? I am also not a Ford hater, I have owned both brands. I have also been involved in racing both brands, winning NZ Championships with both and other brands as a team member. So don't tag me as a hater. I have and still do support GM in racing, but not to the point of utter bias stupidity.

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by Mixer

For the numpties.

Parity does not mean equal wins.

It means an equal chance of winning if the team does everything right.

Right now there is an imbalance and even in identical cars no current Ford team is the equal of 888 or Erebus.

Both commercially and for a large part of the fan base it does mean equal wins.
There is a long history of manufacturers taking their cars out of competition in Australian touring car racing due to lack of wins.
If this is repeated with Supercars now they are left with a big problem.
PS I am not a numptie.I also have never been a GM or Ford fan.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Ares

The cheater Mustang was signed off by the same people who signed off this seasons cars, Hello. 2019 was the largest disparity in parity the class has seen. No car in its history has had as much of a shave back as that car. Evidently Rodger hit the roof with Boeing delivered the wing endplates, the jet engines had been removed. When the Mustang hit the track in 2019 many of the mid pack Ford drivers were suddenly running at the front the top ten, it didn't seem to be an issue back then? But now it is? I am also not a Ford hater, I have owned both brands. I have also been involved in racing both brands, winning NZ Championships with both and other brands as a team member. So don't tag me as a hater. I have and still do support GM in racing, but not to the point of utter bias stupidity.

Helloooooo, I never said those involved with the camaro are cheating this year, you are the one that implied that ford were cheating in 2019, ford built the car presented it and it was allowed to race so where did they cheat?.......you are simply a ford hater.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by Alan52

Both commercially and for a large part of the fan base it does mean equal wins.

But the fact is it doesn't mean any of these things.

You could have success ballast and/or BoP but we see in GT and BTCC that these things suck.

People get penalised for being good and people who are less good win.

Like giving a manufacturer a free kick because they homologated with a team who used to have greatness but the billionaire rule bender leaves a long shadow.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Mixer

But the fact is it doesn't mean any of these things.

You could have success ballast and/or BoP but we see in GT and BTCC that these things suck.

People get penalised for being good and people who are less good win.

Like giving a manufacturer a free kick because they homologated with a team who used to have greatness but the billionaire rule bender leaves a long shadow.

I'm glad you mentioned BoP, that's what is needed.

[Osborne Reynolds]

"Bring back the cable throttle"... 6 beers deep... followed by "bring back the ...."

The Motec Chanel I'd love to see is dTA/dt=derivative of actual throttle angle with respect to time.

What I'd really like to see is a data stream of dTA/dt:

Sector 2
2021 RACE 9 qualifying
Scott McLaughlin
Ford Mustang GT 01:27.9193

and

Sector 2
2023 RACE 19 qualifying
Anton De Pasquale
Ford Mustang GT 1:30.4406

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Ares

Parity as of today is very close now.

How close is very close?

Is it less than 0.05s/lap difference in car potential over qualifying and over a race run?

Even 0.05s/lap is 8s/race difference over 1000km which would be the difference between winning and losing the Bathurst 1000km, assuming two equally well setup cars optimising the full potential of either package.

All we know is that Ford Performance are not happy with Supercars current efforts to establish parity, and the withdrawal of Ford IP such that the ATCC goes to a one-make Camaro series in 2024 might very well be the best way to achieve parity for certain.

[Ares]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

How close is very close?

Is it less than 0.05s/lap difference in car potential over qualifying and over a race run?

Even 0.05s/lap is 8s/race difference over 1000km which would be the difference between winning and losing the Bathurst 1000km, assuming two equally well setup cars optimising the full potential of either package.

All we know is that Ford Performance are not happy with Supercars current efforts to establish parity, and the withdrawal of Ford IP such that the ATCC goes to a one-make Camaro series in 2024 might very well be the best way to achieve parity for certain.

Show me a series that has 10000000.0000% parity, has Supercars ever had that? has everyone in pitlane ever been happy in the history of motorsport? Are Fords now on the podium? Can a Ford get poll? Can Fords pass Chevs late in races to get on the podium? Drivers saying they can't see a difference in the cars on track. Were you happy with the parity in 2019? Yes you were. Great thing with this Forum is it keeps its history. Go back and have a look. Any changes now will be very small, and it will be data driven. They are not going to keep going until Ford are winning 50% of the races. That has never been what this series is about, or any series for that matter. If you want that then you will have to start a team and driver parity test, so no driver can be faster than another, if he is he's out. Sounds great, I will watch that.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Ares

Show me a series that has 10000000.0000% parity

Carrera Cup and Toyota 86 series. I mentioned how one-make series are excellent for parity.

Of course there are still manufacturing tolerances to consider, so nominally 510hp 4.0L flat-six engines may vary by say ±3hp or ±1.0%, but it's a smaller factor than having two entirely different body styles and engines.