[BTCC] Knockhill, 12th-13th August 2023 - Rounds 19, 20, 21

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by Adam43

OK, but is there a similar program or channel where you can watch the other races?

yes

all the support races are also shown on itv4 on their dedicated motorsport UK programme which is only for the btcc support races

this is the listings for august

http://www.dvber.co.uk/ITV/Motorsport+UK

[S griffin]

Although the races they show on Motorsport UK tend to be a meeting or two behind

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

yes

all the support races are also shown on itv4 on their dedicated motorsport UK programme which is only for the btcc support races

this is the listings for august

http://www.dvber.co.uk/ITV/Motorsport+UK

Wonderful - thanks for your help.

[hen henths]

That was an exciting weekend's racing. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think we had any track limits penalties either.

Tingram's ride height penalty was obviously disappointing though perhaps not as disastrous as when it happened to both him and Ash in 2018 - because this time there are still three race weekends to go compared to just two in 2018, so he can make up the ground if Ash has some more bad luck (Speaking of which, Tingram's had a lot less of that this year so maybe we shouldn't be too surprised his luck ran out this time. At least if we call it luck).

John Cleland gave the best explanation of the ride heights I'd seen on TV. He was saying in the dry the teams usually set it right to the limit and then when the drivers pick up marbles at the end of the race it makes up for ride height losses due to tyre wear. He said on a wet track they can't really pick up the marbles.

It seems to me there needs to be a ride height limit and the teams know the rules and take a calculated risk by running the car as low as they think they can get away with. I suppose on the other hand the field is so close they may feel like they have no choice but to run it right on the limit to stay competitive. It would be interesting to know how much a lap time changes by raising it a few millimetres.

I'm sad to see Turks so far down the order. Cookie on the other hand is finally back up the sharp end - could 2024 be his year?

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by hen henths

That was an exciting weekend's racing. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think we had any track limits penalties either.

In the dry part during qualifying, quite a lot of drivers had times deleted for track limit infringements. And during Race 3, Sutton, at least, was shown the black and white flag as a final warning although I also don't believe any penalties for that were given.

[S griffin]

The nature of Knockhill with it's dips and rises, high kerbs and big gravel traps mean drivers can punish themselves enough if they go too wide. And if it's been, the grass is certainly not what you want to go on. So no surprise we didn't really hear anything about track limits during the meeting

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by S griffin

The nature of Knockhill with it's dips and rises, high kerbs and big gravel traps mean drivers can punish themselves enough if they go too wide. And if it's been, the grass is certainly not what you want to go on. So no surprise we didn't really hear anything about track limits during the meeting

Apart from all the lap time deletions that is.

[S griffin]

I meant during the race. Obviously you are more likely to push to the edge in quali

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I meant during the race. Obviously you are more likely to push to the edge in quali

As I said yesterday, mention was made about Sutton getting a final warning, however just because other names weren't mentioned doesn't mean that there weren't also warnings to other drivers as well.. His name came up, I would assume, because he was leading and trying to maintain a good lead over a fast approaching Cook.

Possibly unfortunately, the judicial reports that are made public do not include drivers that are shown the black and white flag.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I meant during the race. Obviously you are more likely to push to the edge in quali

Plenty of lap times are deleted in races, although it's moot whether there's much point in it.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Plenty of lap times are deleted in races, although it's moot whether there's much point in it.

To clarify, what I think is being said here was that apart from the mention of Sutton being shown the naughty flag, there were no other mentions of track limit infractions during any of the races (at Knockhill).

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

To clarify, what I think is being said here was that apart from the mention of Sutton being shown the naughty flag, there were no other mentions of track limit infractions during any of the races (at Knockhill).

Actually, now that I come to think about it, I think that Hill and possibly Turkington got dishonourable mentions during the course of the day for track limit infringements, not necessarily in the last race.

[hen henths]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Actually, now that I come to think about it, I think that Hill and possibly Turkington got dishonourable mentions during the course of the day for track limit infringements, not necessarily in the last race.

Thanks. As for qualifying, I missed it this time, though I might still give it a watch as the coverage is a lot more interesting this year.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

To clarify, what I think is being said here was that apart from the mention of Sutton being shown the naughty flag, there were no other mentions of track limit infractions during any of the races (at Knockhill).

That’s exactly what I meant. And it makes a nice change to not have track limits arguments, warnings and penalties come up during most of the race

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by S griffin

That’s exactly what I meant. And it makes a nice change to not have track limits arguments, warnings and penalties come up during most of the race

I think that you may be missing the point; just because commentators don't mention something, doesn't mean that it didn't happen. What that means is that even if they didn't comment on track limit warnings given to drivers, it doesn't necessarily follow that those warnings were not given.

We just won't know because they don't come up in the judicial reports; that only happens when a potential penalty needs to be considered.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Actually, now that I come to think about it, I think that Hill and possibly Turkington got dishonourable mentions during the course of the day for track limit infringements, not necessarily in the last race.

They were shown black/white flags on the circuit boards for sure.

Black/white flags were extremely common during the support events. F4 in particular had one up each lap

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I think that you may be missing the point; just because commentators don't mention something, doesn't mean that it didn't happen. What that means is that even if they didn't comment on track limit warnings given to drivers, it doesn't necessarily follow that those warnings were not given.

We just won't know because they don't come up in the judicial reports; that only happens when a potential penalty needs to be considered.

I’m not missing the point. I’m just saying how refreshing it was not to be reminded of track limits every two laps

[AnnoyedMoose]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I’m not missing the point. I’m just saying how refreshing it was not to be reminded of track limits every two laps

To be fair they only really mention them during quali. I don't recall a lot of mentions during races.

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by AnnoyedMoose

To be fair they only really mention them during quali. I don't recall a lot of mentions during races.

Only once during the races that I can remember, and that was Sutton in race 3.

[Robin Marriott]

Originally Posted by hen henths

That was an exciting weekend's racing. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think we had any track limits penalties either.

Tingram's ride height penalty was obviously disappointing though perhaps not as disastrous as when it happened to both him and Ash in 2018 - because this time there are still three race weekends to go compared to just two in 2018, so he can make up the ground if Ash has some more bad luck (Speaking of which, Tingram's had a lot less of that this year so maybe we shouldn't be too surprised his luck ran out this time. At least if we call it luck).

John Cleland gave the best explanation of the ride heights I'd seen on TV. He was saying in the dry the teams usually set it right to the limit and then when the drivers pick up marbles at the end of the race it makes up for ride height losses due to tyre wear. He said on a wet track they can't really pick up the marbles.

It seems to me there needs to be a ride height limit and the teams know the rules and take a calculated risk by running the car as low as they think they can get away with. I suppose on the other hand the field is so close they may feel like they have no choice but to run it right on the limit to stay competitive. It would be interesting to know how much a lap time changes by raising it a few millimetres.

I'm sad to see Turks so far down the order. Cookie on the other hand is finally back up the sharp end - could 2024 be his year?

From what they were saying trackside, it’s largely down to the diameter of the wet tyres being smaller than the dry ones, so every single car on the grid would have been in the same position but only the top 3 are checked for ride height.

The team would normally adjust the ride height before the race when they knew the start would be wet but the first race was dry and sunny at the start, the rain arrived out of the blue.

I think the problem was that not everybody changed tyres during the race. If they all had, and everyone had infringed the rules despite not being checked, the result may have stood.

I don’t really understand how a bespoke tyre is not the correct diameter though.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Robin Marriott

From what they were saying trackside, it’s largely down to the diameter of the wet tyres being smaller than the dry ones, so every single car on the grid would have been in the same position but only the top 3 are checked for ride height.

The team would normally adjust the ride height before the race when they knew the start would be wet but the first race was dry and sunny at the start, the rain arrived out of the blue.

I think the problem was that not everybody changed tyres during the race. If they all had, and everyone had infringed the rules despite not being checked, the result may have stood.

I don’t really understand how a bespoke tyre is not the correct diameter though.

I questioned this in this thread and it was said that the tyre likely was the correct diameter, but as it dried, there was so much wear that it caused the issue.

[Robin Marriott]

I’ve just looked back through the thread and seen. Makes sense that could happen.

[Mike Harte]

All cars are subject to scrutineering after each race; other than the first 3, the rest are done whilst in parc ferme out of site. I think that it was at Thruxton, this was caught on camera from the ITV studio as the parc ferme area was directly behind Steve Rider, and the ride height roller was in use with the parked up cars.

[touring fan01]

the same team (excelr8) also got thrown off the podium at donington for exactly the same thing and not adjusting their ride height on ronan pearsons car from the dry to wet tyres

they obviously very slow learners

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Robin Marriott

I think the problem was that not everybody changed tyres during the race. If they all had, and everyone had infringed the rules despite not being checked, the result may have stood.

Just catching up on a few interviews, and Jelley has pointed out that the BMWs do not run as low a ride height as the FWD cars, so when they switch tyres they do not have to adjust.