Hans Question

[scrutineer]

This is still an interesting thread.
I think there are a lot of people in here who are stuck in the age of cloth hats (as some one else mentioned).
The problem here is people have made a decision and whatever they are shown they will not believe it. If someone was to show proof of the benefits you would say 'Dont believe you its all paid for by ..... who is the second brother of the uncle who owns shares in HANS'

device that makes the fia money

Not sure how you come to this conclusion.

if this hans thing was for our safety, they would make us buy AND use them properly !

The MSA do not bring things in straight away as they give you a few years to save and get ready for it to come in. If they made it mandatory this year everyone would be complaining about that, seems they cant win.
Maybe drivers should take more of an interest in there safety and less in getting an extra tenth. This year the standard of preparation in some classes seems to have dropped.
Do you really think that the F1 and WRC would have started using HANS if they thought it would increase the risk during an impact, I think not. They wouldnt just take information at face value they would have looked into in first.
And as for the comment that the tethers are to long I have just had a look at pictures on the Sutton site from this weekend and they don’t look very long to me!!! Was this just another comment with no substance?

[carsten.meurer]

i will try and look up some pics !

even experts say that stand21 shows wrong seatbelt fittings in theire hans
video clip ! i havn't seen it yet !
aparently one jap driver pulled his hans over his shoulders before taking off
the helmet in monaco gp, which indicates too long straps !
already some cms will make a difference, and i doubt they are easy to spot !


what i learnt is, that it seems the fia is fed up with other people making money from mandatory homologations. that is why they introduced the carbon helmets to f1 with the fianorm. but just for racing, not for the more dangerous testing !
why not ?
from my understanding, and i had professionals agreeing in private, the carbon
norm is not safer than anything else. rather the opposite. shells get very heavy, only to withstand impacts that are too high. you will be crushed completely, and suffer high energy loads, but the helmet shell will still be ok.
all to stop snell foundation from charging the manufacturers for mandatory
labels...

manufacturers have to pay to have theire hans devices homologated, and
every helmet that gets a sticker makes them money too.
as with snell stickers, the manufacturers have to pay per item produced.

just with anything but the one o clock impact on a superspeedway, you will
not find proof it really is like i say...

also:
its ok to bring it in over some years ! if its really working !

just i still miss the proof it is helpful in normal accidents, and does not cause problems with the effectiveness of proofen safety equipement !

the lack of any independant research on such a high priced small item,
or any wide spread accident research at all, on a item that is safety relevant
and will become mandatory is what makes me angry !

and it is not surprising that in club racing preparation levels will drop !
what normal human being can still pay for this all ?

[scrutineer]

and it is not surprising that in club racing preparation levels will drop !
what normal human being can still pay for this all ?

Problem is the standard have dropped and its not mandatory yet, does that mean that if when they bring it in the will drop even more??
Although back to the subject I will say that there are a lot more people starting to use them in club racing, when asked why they have chosen to use it they basicly said that they are now going a lot faster than they have done in the past and wanted to do what ever they can to prevent major injury or worse.

[carsten.meurer]

surely it is not the hans that is making racing ever more expensive !

fuel for travel, racing tires and the time they last, entry fees,
the whole cost of living ! it all has to be paied for by the same old
wages !
it has to show somewhere, and the first to show is less events done, secondly
preparation will drop !
and i do not complain about a new race suit being needed every 5 years, or a helmet every 3 to 5 ! they are life safers !

and why do people think they will rise theire level of protection by useing a hans device ?
because moste have no clue, and where told so by the msa, the industy, or plainly do everything a f1 driver does...

and why does f1 use hans ?
because they could make the cars work perfectly for it and make a living
from doing all the fia dictates. same for wrc ( even if the did take back the hans rule for private cars... ).

i know you have a better level of club racer in the uk, but here in germany
( and what i have seen in france last week ) most club racers have no clue
about racing at all, the do it because they want to spent money they got in a sport that is en vogue ! they will do everything they are told...

i honestly feel hans CAN ( not MUST ) be dangerous !
and i just wish someone would put in the research and erase all doubt,
or ban all cars from racing that are not adaptable to hans ( most around ),
and develope a standart working package with a proper seat and belts.

it is safe to wear an heavy iron vest against bullets !
just not if you go swimming...

they are about to force us to use something that is created for something completely different ! and they just assume it has the same positive effects,
without even looking into possible problems !

that is what upsets me ! foget about the few quid to buy one compared to what a single race costs !

[ss_collins]

My understanding of Hans is this (and all research I have seen suggests this as the only proven statement)

The Hans device prevents the injury known as basal skull fracture in frontal impacts of angles up to a maximum of 30 degrees from the centre line of the car.

No other benefits have been proven - though many claimed.

This injury (bsf) is really quite rare, though is also a killer with some high profile victims. If you ask on here the number of occurences of BSF in the last 20 years it will be a very short list and not a large prtion of the total fatality count. (In fact they account for only 4% of severe head injuries).

So yes Hans definatley works - however what its effects are in other types of impact are unknown, it also seems to have a large number of problems...

[johnw]

Here we go again

Links to the research please Sam.
What other benefits have been claimed and by whom?
No point on asking about fatality cause on here. Only the Police investigations and or coroners court verdicts would have the answers.
[quote]it also seems to have a large number of problems.../[quote]
Documented or imagined?

[scrutineer]

Here we go again

Links to the research please Sam.
What other benefits have been claimed and by whom?
No point on asking about fatality cause on here. Only the Police investigations and or coroners court verdicts would have the answers.
it also seems to have a large number of problems...
Documented or imagined?

Am looking forwards to see the answers to these questions as well.

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by artcar

Can't help thinking that the case against the HANS is being based more on the high cost rather than whether they increase, decrease or make no difference to safety. For example, if a HANS cost, say, £100 (I wish!) would we be having this discussion?

No of course not! But then again maybe as it seems many are not hapy the thing actually does what it says on the tin.

( and what i have seen in france last week )

I will go along with that after a sample of French driving at Brands on Sunday.

[dtype38]

Originally Posted by johnw

Here we go again... Links to the research please Sam...

Mmm... indeed "here we go again"! I think a search of 10-10ths under this subject will cover pretty much all of the real and perceived pros and cons of this device. The published research is a contentious issue in itself, as what there is tends to be by supporters of the device, and therefore prone to be dismissed by sceptics.

Having read all the threads and most of the links I think Sam's summary is pretty accurate.

FWIW I choose to wear a HANS device. Are there other things I could do to improve my safety for less money? Possibly. Are there any other types of circuit racing accidents more likely to cause my death? Again - Possibly. Can anyone can suggest a product on the market that offers better value for money than a HANS device, from the point of view of personal safety - taking for granted that I already own "mid-price" items for everything currently suggested in the Blue Book?

[johnw]

Originally Posted by dtype38

Having read all the threads and most of the links I think Sam's summary is pretty accurate.

We'll have to agree to disagree then.

[carsten.meurer]

Originally Posted by johnw

We'll have to agree to disagree then.

thats it !

not enough valued information to make up ones mind !

still it becomes mandatory...

dictatorship ! thanks FIA.....

[Eddy V]

Not only FIA Carsten, what about the DMSB?

Or should that smiley be: mad: ?

[carsten.meurer]

eddy, the dmsb is too dumb and lazy to come up with anything that
has not been created by the fia !

just that they are too dumb to read either the english or frensh original
regulation, so the german one normally turns out twice as stupid...

[scrutineer]

still it becomes mandatory...

Its not mandatory in the UK club racing and as far as I know it will be a few years before it is. Although I know a few championships use them and have it written in there regs.
I will say I am surprised at the amount of HANS that I am seeing turn up in club racing so I am thinking that the 'I don’t want it' people must be turning into a small minority making lots of noise!!!

[Al Weyman]

I guess the governing bodies are all worried about a law suite if they do not mandate it and someone gets killed then some smart ass lawer will 'prove' would have survived with Hans.

[dtype38]

A new twist.....

I was at Lydden Hill for a race meeting on Saturday. I took my HANS device along with my helmet for scrutineering. The MSA scrutineer checked that the helmet had it's relevent SA appoval label, and also that it had an approved HANS device label as well... then he checked that the HANS device had the appropriate FIA approval label..... THEN... he asked me if this was my own HANS device and that it was specifically fitted to me when it was bought (which I confirmed)... THEN... he checked that the serial number on the HANS device matched the serial number listed on the label in the helmet!

Finally satisfied, he smiled approvingly and confirmed that I had a matching set.... he didn't say what would have happened if they hadn't matched.

I don't remember seeing that as a requirement anywhere!

[johnw]

It isn't.

[ss_collins]

sorry not online as much as usual, at Le Mans you see

What other benefits have been claimed and by whom?

not in published research but in the sales patter - lots of benefits of side impacts talk about side and rear impacts some from the FIA themselves. No links to any research but thats the point! Does everyone with a Hans know that it only does one job?

[scrutineer]

I was at Lydden Hill for a race meeting on Saturday. I took my HANS device along with my helmet for scrutineering. The MSA scrutineer checked that the helmet had it's relevent SA appoval label, and also that it had an approved HANS device label as well... then he checked that the HANS device had the appropriate FIA approval label..... THEN... he asked me if this was my own HANS device and that it was specifically fitted to me when it was bought (which I confirmed)... THEN... he checked that the serial number on the HANS device matched the serial number listed on the label in the helmet!

So now your moaning that scrutineers are checking things, and I belive there is information on this subject available from the MSA and on the FIA website.

Does everyone with a Hans know that it only does one job?

Race suite stops you getting burnt
Helmet protects your head
They all only do one job but when you put all these one jobs together you get some very safe racing, and I see the HANS device as another one piece in this safety puzzle.

[ss_collins]

follow that line of logic and not racing protects you from danger...

this is a dangerous sport and it always will be, never forget that.

Hans is proven to do nothing more than prevent BSF, if anyone doubts it can prevent BSF then they are a fool. To me that is the only proven fact relating to Hans. - that is the statement d-type is referring to I think.

John can you show anything that says otherwise?

BSF is a known killer, but it is also known that side impacts are far more dangerous. Hans might save your life - then again it might not, after all people wearing them have been killed.

My point is that indpendent research is needed on a variety of vehicle types and impact anges / velocities, but its clear to me that this will not happen.

[Notso Swift]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

I guess the governing bodies are all worried about a law suite if they do not mandate it and someone gets killed then some smart ass lawer will 'prove' would have survived with Hans.

It will be eaiser to prove that it would not have happened if you didn't go racing!

[greenamex2]

Originally Posted by dtype38

A new twist.....

I was at Lydden Hill for a race meeting on Saturday. I took my HANS device along with my helmet for scrutineering. The MSA scrutineer checked that the helmet had it's relevent SA appoval label, and also that it had an approved HANS device label as well... then he checked that the HANS device had the appropriate FIA approval label..... THEN... he asked me if this was my own HANS device and that it was specifically fitted to me when it was bought (which I confirmed)... THEN... he checked that the serial number on the HANS device matched the serial number listed on the label in the helmet!

Finally satisfied, he smiled approvingly and confirmed that I had a matching set.... he didn't say what would have happened if they hadn't matched.

I don't remember seeing that as a requirement anywhere!

Interesting. That should allow scope for the cost to double when they become mandatory!

[johnw]

Originally Posted by scrutineer

.....and I belive there is information on this subject available from the MSA and on the FIA website.

A search of the MSA sight reveals ................nothing.
A search of the FIA site reveals...........tech specs, fitting instructions, approved manufacturers and the like.

Nothing regarding the benefits, no mention of side impacts or anything else that is claimed by some here.

Whilst we're on the subject

Originally Posted by ss_collins

Hans might save your life - then again it might not, after all people wearing them have been killed.

People have perished when wearing seat belts and crash helmets.
Maybe we should be looking at the things they collide with as well?

[dtype38]

Originally Posted by scrutineer

So now your moaning that scrutineers are checking things, and I belive there is information on this subject available from the MSA and on the FIA website.

I'm sorry if what I said sounded like a moan... it wasn't meant to be. I was simply relaying a part of the HANS saga which I don't think has been covered yet, ie., the fact that at scrutineering my device and helmet were checked for being a matching set. I thought this was new information and "a bit of a twist".

I have no problem at all with scrutineers checking anything and everything they want for compliance with the Blue Book. I like to think that I have read the latter thoroughly and that I abide by it in every way. If anything is pointed out that shows I am in error, then I am happy to correct it as soon as humanly possible. All I ask in return is that scrutineers don't start "inventing" rules that aren't there in black and white.

[scrutineer]

I have no problem at all with scrutineers checking anything and everything they want for compliance with the Blue Book. I like to think that I have read the latter thoroughly and that I abide by it in every way.

On a lighter note you will be one of the first race drivers to have read the blue book I think most leave them in the packet

follow that line of logic and not racing protects you from danger...

This is true, but as someone points out the MSA and FIA have to take all possible safety measures or they will end up in court. But that is the world we live in.