No driver orders at Mclaren?/McLaren under investigation

[Smokey 6 litre]

i can only see the real outcome of the 'investigation' is that Ron will be slighty more careful with his words in future.
But to be honest the race was only ever between the McLarens so Ron was in the position to decide which one of them won.
And even if he told them to back off i dont think they did, it was amazing to see the McLarens through the first chicane, incredible change of direction and the back out! they weren't taking it easy.

[Marbot]

To be honest,the best thing that can (but not necessarily will) come out of this,is a clarification of exactly what constitutes "team orders".

[climb]

Originally Posted by Smokey 6 litre

i can only see the real outcome of the 'investigation' is that Ron will be slighty more careful with his words in future.
But to be honest the race was only ever between the McLarens so Ron was in the position to decide which one of them won.
....

well At Zeltweg in 2002 the situation was exactly this one, but Ferrari giving team orders created a scandal... why now is that different?

[Andrew2001]

This is what happens, F1 stinks when ths kind of nonsense resurfaces. When in the last 10 years has McLaren parked one of their cars on the finishing line at hte same race two years in a row to let the other one win. Tell me, how did Barrichello suddenly match Schumacher's pace in '02 and '04 once the championships were decided?
Tell me, seeing Hamilton almost write his car off several times from pushing so hard chasing down Alonso, or seeing Alonso SIDEWAYS trying to hold onto his lead, that was quality. Of course they didn't thrash it out from start to finish, that would have been suicidal. One thing is for sure, on tracks where there IS room for error, we WILL see a titanic scrap, the two McLaren drivers with a Ferrari close behind for the title, who will it be.
We could have seen this kind of dingdong battling between the Ferrari cars over the years, but we never did, F1 is getting exciting again, thanks to the fact that Ferrari aren't leading the title race. I can hardly wait. And to those who is complaining about Ron Dennis favouring one or the other, go watch Nascar, or A1, or MotorGP, or Coronation St.

[Gt_R]

Quote:"Tell me, seeing Hamilton almost write his car off several times from pushing so hard chasing down Alonso, or seeing Alonso SIDEWAYS trying to hold onto his lead, that was quality"

Indeed that WAS quality.. until we were all informed that from around lap 10, orders came from Ron that they were not racing anymore.

I don't really see a major issue with Mclaren's orders, strategy, or whatever Ron calls it. Holding station is quite normal, and put Ferrari, or any other teams in that position, and i'm sure the same will be done.

However, i just love it when Mclaren fans try to portray how Mclaren's orders as morally superior to that implemented by other teams, inc Ferrari. How circumstances are twisted to make Mclaren's orders right, and others all wrong...

They are still team orders, and you like it or you don't. Not to twist the stance dependent on the team that practice it. If we are really to get into details, then maybe it's worth noting that Ferrari orders were at a period when there were no regulations from the FIA, and i don't think the same can be said for last Sunday.

Mclaren did not just ask their drivers to hold station, but as LH had perhaps suggested indirectly, they had also altered his strategy (pit early, and more) which made him lose any chance of winning a strategic race. And Mclaren has shown that they are effective in using their pit "strategies" to influence the outcome of one driver over the other... i think DC experienced it well.

But my opinion remains. I understood Ferrari's need to use team orders, and i accepted it although i didn't like it. Similarly, i didn't like nor support what Mclaren did, but still i accept it as part of the game. Hopefully, some fans will not continue to deny that Mclaren, for good or bad, is really the same as other teams in the business and willingness to use team orders/preferential treatment.

[Adie]

Oh good god what is the sport coming too.

The Max and Bernie show has done so much good for F1, but they do so much bad as well. What Ferrari want, Ferrari get (Take Monza last year for example). If there are no team orders in F1 - well what the hell has MS been doing? Was his not "Un-equivical" number one at Ferrari??! Who here would argue with that? surely by definition of number one driver you are having "Team Orders"

Bernie dragged this sport up from it's knees in the FISA / FOCA debarcle or whatever it was in the 80's and made it into a hugely successful product. But he's slowly killing the sport to ever-more fill his own already gold lined pockets.

Every year we get Silverstone etc threatened because it's a "Sub-Standard venue" We've lost Suzuka for Fuji as they could pay more - Even Valencia has a GP next year because of the Alonso effect - but it's 9 HECKING YEARS??! I mean this is from a country that historically has a poor F1 following. What do they do when Alonso retires?

Bernie's a Billionaire several times over, he doesn't need the money, I just wish he'd stop meddling with the sport in the way that he is as he's starting to damage it beyond repair.

Take this points docking threat to Mclaren.

What McLaren did was perfectly fine. Allowing your drivers to race to the second pit stop then hold station is nothing new. You forget there is a Constructors championship too, 18 points were there for the taking - where is the logic in sacrificing them so two drivers can play dodgems. The dangers of Monaco are well known as they are.

All this so the rest of the world can collectively bum Lewis Hamilton. Don't get me wrong, the guys a superstar in the making - I've followed him since F-Renault days. But keep some perspective here everyone.

I'm really hecking Pi$$y now.

[DougK]

To me I think the no team orders rule is so unclear and stupid. Is the rule enforceable in court, surely its all "hearsay"? If they don't want team orders at all then only let each team have one car! Another option would be to ensure each car has different sponsors so at least the sponsors will demand rivraly within the team.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by martyn bott

I think someone has knocked the teacup over though.

Interesting that Damon thinks that Mclaren did wrong,I think mainly because of the sort of person he is.It would be interesting to know what TGF thinks.

I don't think Schumacher think anything about it. He isn't that political.

[Gt_R]

I don't know if Damon remembers a certain Spa in a certain Jordan.

Adie, it would help to stay on track instead of comments such as "What Ferrari want, Ferrari get (Take Monza last year for example).", because Ferrari has not been getting themselves much involved in this mini-havoc created by British media and Ron.

Quote:"What McLaren did was perfectly fine. Allowing your drivers to race to the second pit stop then hold station is nothing new." I agree, but then again, just for your information, the "strategy" is implemented from around lap 10, not 10 laps from the finish. If "words" from Ron were to be believed, it may even be determined before the race start that Alonso will win.

I doubt it can be enforced, but Ron himself did say that team orders were used, and who knows what was said in the team radio. Nonetheless, i doubt FIA will really do much more, at most just give Mclaren a verbal warning thats all. Just to answer to the media and please the people who are keen to see blood.

[Pingguest]

Apart from the discussing whether McLaren broke the rules, I don't see anything wrong with team orders. Team orders are just as old as the sports itself. Every team may choose its own way of winning races, as long you don't push the opponent of the track.

[Sodemo]

I think the main difference between this and previous instances of team orders is that in the past, a lot of the controversy has involved two cars actually changing position, totally changing the result of the race, whereas on Sunday, it was two cars told to "hold station".

[Pingguest]

On what time will the FIA come with its conclusions?

[climb]

Originally Posted by Andrew2001

This is what happens, F1 stinks when ths kind of nonsense resurfaces. When in the last 10 years has McLaren parked one of their cars on the finishing line at hte same race two years in a row to let the other one win. Tell me, how did Barrichello suddenly match Schumacher's pace in '02 and '04 once the championships were decided?
....

You seem to be confusing form and substance: at Zeltweg 2002 we saw a very unelegant way of deciding who had to win. If this year in Montecarlo there was any team decision they surely did it more politely, but I'm absolutely sure that, had Alsonso been ordered to let Lewis pass, he should have done it exactly the same way, so as to reassure all the audience about him being the faster anyways.
The same way round, if teams orders were already forbidden in 2002, RB and MS would have switched positions in a less blatant way: aftyer all it's not hard to screw a pit stop up or similars...

But my point was a bit ironic (sorry wasn't caught); i basically think that team orders always existed and always will, like it or not, and that forbidding them will just make the teams do it more politely, in a way that cannot be undisputably demonstrated and that ultimately, will let them unpunished.

[Chewie-1990]

Exactly, I'm sure if one of the mechanics had been instructed to 'accidentally' drop a wheelnut in one of Lewis' pitstops, for example, handing the race to Alonso, it could appear to be an accident, difficult to prove otherwise.

[Pingguest]

McLaren is found not guilty:

http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2007/...capes_penalty/

[strider]

Blimey, common sense prevails!

[chillibowl]

another job well done by The FIA.
on the flip side, its a long season, and im sure they will have plenty more opportunities to artificially alter the Championship.

gamblers of the world beware, your rights to bet on sports are less important than a team's, any teams, rights to compete!

[Sodemo]

Thats settled then.

[medius]

I suppose the next question is, where is the difference in:

''Don't race each other, we want you guys to finish''

and

''Don't race each other, we want Driver.X to finish ahead''

In my eyes, there isn't a difference.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

another job well done by The FIA.

The (some)people were outraged. The (some) people got there stupid enquiry. The enquiry told them how it is.

gamblers of the world beware, your rights to bet on sports are less important than a team's, any teams, rights to compete!

Gamblers beware: don't bet on a sport you don't understand.

[andy_b]

something tells me the British tabloids wont give as many column inches to this part of the story than on Monday morning....

Pleased that the FiA made the sensible decision. All the McLaren haters that come out the woodwork can now go back!

[Marbot]

O.K. glad that's been clarified (again).I wonder what's next.

[DSM]

Originally Posted by strider

Interesting that Damon Hill thinks McLaren broke the rules, but Jackie Stewart does not.

.

Very interesting considering that Damon Hill played a key role in one of the most blatant race fixes we've seen.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by DSM

Very interesting considering that Damon Hill played a key role in one of the most blatant race fixes we've seen.

You're not thinking of the Spa one where Ralf was nowhere in sight until the arrival of the safety car are you?

[Leighton Irwin]

17 pages over what turns out to be zip! I am just as guilty as anyone.