Nissan LMP1 Discussion

[jswarde]

[QUOTE=miatanut;3514635]Mulsanne Mike noted they were having problems. Either on Radio LeMans or at the presentation in Chicago, Darren Cox noted the mechanical KERS is "fiendishly complicated" and that "if" they could get it to work it would be a big advantage.....

I would also call a Wankel engine an immature technology.....

miatanut; thanks for the reply; I have to agree that the Torotrak/Flybrid is not mature; just not all that immature; Flywheel Kers are really as old as the hills but in a lot different and simpler form than the current developments. You also expose one of my personal frailties for immature technology having hankered after an NSU RO80 in the 60's and finally purchased a Mazda Wankel engine RX in the 70's.

I can declare an interest in Torotrak as a long term investor; Clearly Nissan are trying to push the boundaries of application of the Flybrid in terms of power but the technologies employed are pretty well tried and tested. The flywheel is simpler than the Audi version (described by some as an electric flywheel accumulator) and runs at a similar speed. The clutch based CFT transmission uses well tested automatic transmission technology albeit with one gear shaft running at fiendishly high rpm - same speed as the flywheel.

Some of the fiendish complication mentioned by Darren is probably the same as Audi experienced in 2010/11 trying to develop their car; weight reduction of the basic race car to accommodate the extra KERS kit is a real challenge. That certainly seems to be one of the big issues for Nissan; trying to become AWD requires fiendishly complicated rear drive connections to try and avoid interfering with the aerodynamic duct flow. This rear drive gear also adds to the weight issue.

Conclusion; Yes Nissan are being very ambitious both technologically and on timescale. They do not expect a lot in 2015 and some might question their wisdom in airing so much development in public as their PR has done but I hope they can get enough success this year to push on and deliver next year.

[CyberMotor]

Originally Posted by miatanut

Another nifty concept lacking only development.

Yeah, with the Stirling, people have only been playing with since the early 1800's.

I thought this amusing and related to the thread...Googled "Stirling Engine" and found this twin flywheel Stirling!

http://www.sci-supply.com/Flywheel-S...FU4V7AodRH0AOQ

[miatanut]

[QUOTE=jswarde;3514743]

Originally Posted by miatanut

Mulsanne Mike noted they were having problems. Either on Radio LeMans or at the presentation in Chicago, Darren Cox noted the mechanical KERS is "fiendishly complicated" and that "if" they could get it to work it would be a big advantage.....

I would also call a Wankel engine an immature technology.....

miatanut; thanks for the reply; I have to agree that the Torotrak/Flybrid is not mature; just not all that immature; Flywheel Kers are really as old as the hills but in a lot different and simpler form than the current developments. You also expose one of my personal frailties for immature technology having hankered after an NSU RO80 in the 60's and finally purchased a Mazda Wankel engine RX in the 70's.

I can declare an interest in Torotrak as a long term investor; Clearly Nissan are trying to push the boundaries of application of the Flybrid in terms of power but the technologies employed are pretty well tried and tested. The flywheel is simpler than the Audi version (described by some as an electric flywheel accumulator) and runs at a similar speed. The clutch based CFT transmission uses well tested automatic transmission technology albeit with one gear shaft running at fiendishly high rpm - same speed as the flywheel.

Some of the fiendish complication mentioned by Darren is probably the same as Audi experienced in 2010/11 trying to develop their car; weight reduction of the basic race car to accommodate the extra KERS kit is a real challenge. That certainly seems to be one of the big issues for Nissan; trying to become AWD requires fiendishly complicated rear drive connections to try and avoid interfering with the aerodynamic duct flow. This rear drive gear also adds to the weight issue.

Conclusion; Yes Nissan are being very ambitious both technologically and on timescale. They do not expect a lot in 2015 and some might question their wisdom in airing so much development in public as their PR has done but I hope they can get enough success this year to push on and deliver next year.

I agree in a sense flywheel energy storage has been around for ages, but putting it in moving vehicles, requiring doing it as compactly and light weight as possible, is a new challenge. I feel like a lot of the problem has been going the CFT route instead lobbying for the Torotrak CVT. With flywheel energy storage revolving around using energy from one thing that is spinning down to spin up another thing, it just screams for a CVT. If the output from the CVT went to the input shaft of the conventional transmission, it would conform to "the spirit of the rules." The CFT requires a whole lot of weight for gearbox relative to the flywheel weight. The Torotrak CVT is a much more elegant solution.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by jswarde

Now not running the REAR hybrid system is not really anything to do with the system supplier; it is more likely a decision by Nissan not to install or connect up the Kers system to the rear wheels either for weight reasons or because the total package is simply not ready.

It's all about weight.

Of course the Darren and Ben quotes may not be telling the whole story; time will tell. As an amusing aside some folk are saying that the Kers has not been running at all whilst others are saying the Kers is responsible for the "failure. Sounds a bit inconsistent to me.

It should. Tub was broken at a mounting point. How the car is built, front half to rear half, it clearly wasn't reinforced properly. Something they found running at Sebring, nothing was working during the test with their suspension setups, grip etc..based on computer modeling and simulations. When the found the break, it was time to head back and repair the tub.

Personally I think that the Kers has probably been run but on FWD only (implied at least from the Ben Bowlby quote above) and it could be the source of some severe reaction torque that could have overloaded the powertrain mounting.

It has been run front only, it's done a 40+ hour test. The KERS is fine, it's the whole package that needs work. Reaction torque would be pretty impressive, but, really, really, really unlikely. It was simply the flex in the chassis.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by CyberMotor

Yeah, with the Stirling, people have only been playing with since the early 1800's.

I thought this amusing and related to the thread...Googled "Stirling Engine" and found this twin flywheel Stirling!

http://www.sci-supply.com/Flywheel-S...FU4V7AodRH0AOQ

Longevity and amount of development are different things!

[CyberMotor]

Originally Posted by miatanut

Longevity and amount of development are different things!

What if a Stirling Engine could fit in your hand and weigh a few ounces or pounds and generate 1,000 watts of power from wasted heat?

You speak of the amount of development, here is a Google representation of the topic...

https://www.google.com/search?q=stir...w=1343&bih=888

They have also been identified as one of the most efficient engines on Earth and they are hanging them out in front of solar collectors in a perfect marriage.

https://www.google.com/search?q=sola...w=1343&bih=888

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by CyberMotor

What if a Stirling Engine could fit in your hand and weigh a few ounces or pounds and generate 1,000 watts of power from wasted heat?

You speak of the amount of development, here is a Google representation of the topic...

https://www.google.com/search?q=stir...w=1343&bih=888

They have also been identified as one of the most efficient engines on Earth and they are hanging them out in front of solar collectors in a perfect marriage.

https://www.google.com/search?q=sola...w=1343&bih=888

I hope they are successful.

I'm a tree-hugger but the massive subsidies for solar PV have always irritated me. For the US, they just mean a lot of money going to China, where solar thermal, or wind, and other technologies like this can actually generate power cheaper and are more likely to be fabricated domestically.

[CyberMotor]

Most of the energy recovery technologies require movement or engine performance to generate the extra energy. With the Stirling model, it needs a source of external heat to work and there is plenty of that in an LMP1. Even when the car is sitting still in the pits with the engine off, there is still a substantial amount of heat coming off the engine, the exhaust, the brakes, the tires and the driver. I've seen people build miniature V-12 models that work so I think small palm-sized engines could be built that would generate electricity. We are in an age of extreme innovation right now so thinking outside the box.

[CyberMotor]

Originally Posted by miatanut

the massive subsidies for solar PV have always irritated me.

The solar subsidies are miniscule compared to the oil subsidies so not sure why you have a beef there.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by CyberMotor

Most of the energy recovery technologies require movement or engine performance to generate the extra energy. With the Stirling model, it needs a source of external heat to work and there is plenty of that in an LMP1. Even when the car is sitting still in the pits with the engine off, there is still a substantial amount of heat coming off the engine, the exhaust, the brakes, the tires and the driver. I've seen people build miniature V-12 models that work so I think small palm-sized engines could be built that would generate electricity. We are in an age of extreme innovation right now so thinking outside the box.

My impression of the Stirling engine is that is is great on fuel efficiency, but not so good on output against size or weight, so it is a good choice for a stationary engine that can enjoy the benefits of the efficiency and size and weight are secondary considerations. Kind of the opposite of a Wankel. If my impression is correct, it wouldn't work well on a racing car, but might make sense on a ship.

Originally Posted by CyberMotor

The solar subsidies are miniscule compared to the oil subsidies so not sure why you have a beef there.

I'm against oil subsidies too. The biggest subsidy is being able to dump millions of tons of CO2 into the atmosphere, tax free.

My gripe is solar PV has gotten huge subsidies while wind can generate power for far less money, so we could be generating far more power from renewal resources for the same subsidy money. Plus, in the US, most of the solar PV subsidy money goes off shore, working well for Chinese workers, but not so well for American workers. Most of the money for large wind installations stays in the US.

[TF110]

We could have had free, wireless electricity if Nikola Tesla had his way. But this is veering off topic. I haven't heard anything about another scheduled test for Nissan. They need to get on it if theyre to make the prologue.

[chernaudi]

Well, they do have 15-20 more test days being a new team vs the 50 free private test days that Audi, Toyota, and other established teams get.

But even with that, all indications are that 2015 for sure will be a fraught time for Nissan, especially early. The WEC Prologue test days and pre-LM rounds do look to be a gloomy and trying time just like in F1 for McLaren Honda where even finishing a race will be a victory in itself.

[TF110]

Im not talking about their total test days. Im referring to them wanting to test again before the prologue. If theyre going to do that itd need to have already happened, or happen this week.

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by TF110

Im not talking about their total test days. Im referring to them wanting to test again before the prologue. If theyre going to do that itd need to have already happened, or happen this week.

Just pointing out that by being a new team, they should have more days to use. And considering how much of a debacle the Sebring test ended up being, they need to get more miles on the car just to validate whatever fixes that they made, and just to get more miles on it.

Nissan is running out of time as far the start of the season, and it's obviously going to be a difficult one of them. Difficult seemingly being a bit understatement.

[YorkshireLad]

I have heard from some insiders in Australia that the Nissan was 14 sec off the pace at Sebring and that they won’t be able to race more than 2MJ.

[philipp]

Originally Posted by YorkshireLad

I have heard from some insiders in Australia that the Nissan was 14 sec off the pace at Sebring and that they won’t be able to race more than 2MJ.

That's a lot......

I just hope that they can find some speed so it won't be so embarrassing!

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by philipp

That's a lot......

I just hope that they can find some speed so it won't be so embarrassing!

The tub was broken at a mounting point. Nothing that was done suspension setup wise, would make any difference. The speed will come.

[Wild Dog]

According to Autosport, Nissan has withdrawn from Silverstone and Spa... Not the start they could've hoped for.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/118109

[supermario21]

Not surprising really but we won't see the team in action until LM Test day now...


http://www.dailysportscar.com/2015/0...t-le-mans.html

[Acid09]

Oh dear, let's hope they get the car to a semi-competitive state for Le Mans at least.

It really seems like Nissan has bitten off more than they could chew.

[Pandemonium]

They are pathetic that is what they are. They don´t make a normal car becuase they already know that they are going to fail anyway. I swear I will never buy a Nissan. Hats off to them.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Oh dear, let's hope they get the car to a semi-competitive state for Le Mans at least.

They will.

It really seems like Nissan has bitten off more than they could chew.

Nope. Just teething issues. They will get it solved. Rather have a semi-quick, reliable car than one that breaks two minutes into the race at Silverstone.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by Pandemonium

They are pathetic that is what they are. They don´t make a normal car becuase they already know that they are going to fail anyway. I swear I will never buy a Nissan. Hats off to them.

Stupidest statement I've read in here.

Do you seriously think that Nissan would front this amount of cash because " they already know that they are going to fail" Please...

[carbon_titanium]

pathetic is the only word to describe this joke.
Even the amr-one was able to take part to a race in late march...

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

Nope. Just teething issues. They will get it solved. Rather have a semi-quick, reliable car than one that breaks two minutes into the race at Silverstone.

They seem to have all kinds of issues though, it's not just one thing.

Right now it seems the car is neither fast or reliable and that is a bad place to be in. Looking in from the outside this really seems to be another AMR-One in the making, at least Aston Martin was smart enough not to set the bar high for themselves.

Nissan on the other hand..oh well, the "bad boys" really need to deliver something respectable if they don't want to look completely foolish.