USCC (leave your axe outside)

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by FstrthnU

It won't be totally representative of next year since the P2s will be switching to Continentals. They may or may not be faster than the current Michelins (since they are currently using the Michelin PC tire).

I did not say, nor imply, that it would be representative of next year. In fact if you read on, a couple of posts further I state "It will give the fans that are looking forward to the merger next year a REAL example of what needs to be done!"









L.P.

[Beetle]

Originally Posted by Duff_44

Disclaimer: This post intended to be 100% axe-free

I was thinking about 2014 and some potential car number conflicts post-merger. I'm limiting this to regular full-season(-ish) runners or long-established part timers.

3 & 4: Corvette Racing & 8Star Motorsport
I think Corvette would likely keep the numbers. Since 8Star has said they want to run 2 DP's and 2 PC's, and their current PC is #81, I would imagine the second PC would be #82. Slap an "8" in front of the current DP numbers and you get #83 and #84, and keep all the team cars together number-wise.

6: Muscle Milk Team Pickett & Michael Shank Racing
No idea if MMTP continues into USCR, might not be an issue. #16 (Dyson), #61 (R.Ferri/AIM) & #06 (CORE) not an option for either.

8: BAR1 Motorsport & Starworks Motorsports
No idea on this one. I would guess Starworks keeps it and BAR1 changes to something else. BAR1 is the remnants of the Intersport operation, so maybe switch to their #37, and #38 for continuity?

9: Rocketsports Racing & Action Express Racing
AX keeps #9, RSR switches to either #33 or #75 - both used on the RSR Jags, and Gentilozzi's T/A car was #3 for many years so the double-3 makes sense.

10: Dempsey del Piero (2nd car, when they run it) & Wayne Taylor Racing
WTR keeps it, DdP runs #25 to match the PC they ran last year.

18: Performance Tech & Muhlner Motorsport
Again not sure about this one. Muhlner's other 'regular' #17 already used by Team Falken Tire. Maybe #19?

44: Flying Lizard Motorsports & Magnus Racing
This is the biggest one on the list. Only number I've ever seen Magnus use than #44 is #77, when they ran some races in ALMS GTC, but Doran uses that.

62: Risi Competizione & Snow Racing
Risi keeps it, Snow switches to something else.

93: SRT Motorsports & Turner Motorsports
Could go either way. Turner keeps #93, and SRT changes their car to #92. Or, SRT keep #93 and Turner changes that car to #95. Could be either one.

01 & 02: Extreme Speed Motorsports & Ganassi Racing
Ganassi keeps them. No idea what ESM switches to, all the other numbers ending in '1' or '2' are taken.

OK, I've finished my time-wasting mind dump for the day. I hope I have kept it axe-less.

The best post on this thread in a few months. Thank you - it was refreshing.

A few other thoughts about the # situation...

SRT Motorsports could easily go to #92 or #53. Ganassi will never change their numbers. I think ESM may switch to 001 and 002, to pull a Scott Tucker, one might say. Flying Lizard ran a #46 GT2 Porsche back in the day in the ALMS on occasion so that could be the new #44 car. Again, Magnus won't change their number, I don't think.

[BullMan]

I'm thinking they'll give seniority on the numbers. Willing to bet SRT keeps their numbers though. Factory money can accomplish a lot.

[Danske]

Or they could put each number on a chip, put the chips in a pile, and have representatives from each team run to the pile and dig for their numbers all at once.

[David Land]

The numbering should go

1-20 ---> P
21-40 --> PC
41-60 --> GTLM
61-80 --> GTD
81-99 --> Up for grabs

[Duff_44]

Originally Posted by Beetle

The best post on this thread in a few months. Thank you - it was refreshing.

Somebody needs to be the voice of reason. It's scary as hell that it's mine, but anyway...

Originally Posted by Beetle

I think ESM may switch to 001 and 002

Very well might. If they could convince JDX Racing to give up #11, they could use #11 & #12, switching their '0' to a '1'.
Or maybe #40 (% alcohol) and #80 (proof) in deference to their sponsor

Originally Posted by Beetle

Again, Magnus won't change their number, I don't think.

They might not have a choice, I think deference would be given to FLM if they wanted to continue to use #44.

Originally Posted by David Land

The numbering should go

1-20 ---> P
21-40 --> PC
41-60 --> GTLM
61-80 --> GTD
81-99 --> Up for grabs

Another possibility... do the Le Mans-like thing and group them by class. Super logical, not sure how the teams would like it.

[Duff_44]

Just tweeted Scot Elkins about car numbering, I'll post his response if I get one.

[CyberMotor]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Naw, world class prototype racing has just become so much more expensive that it only makes sense on a world scale these days.

And to think that America has any influence in the world on a global scale today or has any ability to compete at such a level. I stand corrected.

Believe me, I am one who is extremely grateful and appreciative of where I live. I only wish we could put our engineering might and skills into certain areas rather than others.

I wish we could lead the world in endurance prototype racing that has a direct relevance to the efficiency of our automotive fleet that did not require global conflicts (in a nutshell).

[chernaudi]

Problem is that NASCAR is where the money is in American motor racing. Ford has all but pulled out or is in the process of pulling out of every racing series that they've been involved in over the past decade aside from NASCAR.

I don't see Ford returning to LM anytime soon unless the FIA and ACO allow DPs to race at LM, which I don't see that happening.

GM only races the Corvette at LM and in the ALMS/USCR because of the Corvette fanatics and it's about the closest thing that they make to being a true super car (the Corvette is def a sports car no matter what anyone says), and the same applies for Chrysler with the Viper--a lot of fans, and it's a hardcore sports car/nearly a super car. Ford doesn't have anything like that since the GT left production a few years ago and ACO homologation on it expired a couple of years ago. Unless you want to count Ford's 12% ownership of Aston Martin, we're gonna have to wait until at least the new Mustang comes out, which at least will be easier to adapt to GT3 or GTE regs than the current car is.

Also, I'd be willing to bet that Toyota Motor Corporation spends more money on their NASCAR program than they give to TMG to run the WEC program. I have almost no doubt on that.

It seems that to be relevant in the American market place, one must go NASCAR racing, even if LM is more popular world wide. LM is about the only sportscar race that makes headlines in America.

Also, Henry Ford II isn't in charge of the Ford Motor Company anymore, and corporate money to be spent on racing for most car makers isn't there like it was even just a decade ago.

[TF110]

TRD does NASCAR. Its separate from TMG. Toyota like many other manufacturers have regional groups which are in charge of activities like racing in that region. Just like you see SuperGT in Japan, NASCAR in the U.S. and you have a Dakar program run by Toyota South Africa. You should know similar things are done with Audi.

[HORNDAWG]

From Windtunnel tonight,
Penske: "I've had a lot of conversation w/ key guys at Porsche. But they're building in house team w/ great people from F1."

Penske: "I really don't see (Porsche LMP1) in my future. We love the (USCR) series coming together. We'd love to get in that some way."

So further confirmation we won't likely see Penske in @fiawec or @24hoursoflemans next year with Porsche.

As tweeted by Dagys.









L.P.

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by TF110

TRD does NASCAR. Its separate from TMG. Toyota like many other manufacturers have regional groups which are in charge of activities like racing in that region. Just like you see SuperGT in Japan, NASCAR in the U.S. and you have a Dakar program run by Toyota South Africa. You should know similar things are done with Audi.

Problem is that TRD USA, TRD Japan/Toyota Technocraft and TMG are all owned by TMC as separate divisions. All TRD divisions are are subservient to Toyota Motorsport in Japan. TMG is a separate division, but it's a wholly owned division of TMC.

As far as Audi goes, the issue is funding--local/regional importers have to pay Audi AG/Audi Sport for those programs, hence, no Audi in the ALMS because Audi of America wouldn't pay what Audi Sport/Audi AG considered their fair share of the budget. Outside of that, all teams and cars are built, maintained, and supported by Audi Sport/Audi AG. Only the importers provide funding, but don't actually run the actual race programs.

And it doesn't matter if it's Audi, Toyota, Ford, GM, what have you. Regional companies are responsible for funding/promotion for regional series. But the ultimate responsibly for overall funding and support of any racing program has to be signed off by the parent company.

I can't see Holden doing V8 Supercars on their own--a lot of that funding is approved by their parent company GM in Detroit. TMG and any TRD branch can't do anything without the budget people in Toyota City, Japan signing off on it first, and the same applies for Audi of America with Audi AG and Ford of Europe/Ford Werke GmbH with Ford Motor Company. Only deal here is that the regional importer usually has to spend the money for promo and help with funding a regional program.

Unless it's a world championship or based in the company's back yard, don't expect the main company to publicly "front" a regional championship, but all funding and support comes from the parent company, no matter who it is or what series it is where there are factory supported teams.

It's also well known that Audi Sport/quattro GmbH were the main backers of the R8 GA program at Daytona, rather than Audi of America. Only way we'll see AoA really dump money into something is if GT3 cars take off in USCR, as that can be a profit making customer car program.

Same thing with the Porsche RS Spyder. It was heavily backed by Porsche Motorsport North America, but it was it was the main Porsche Motorsport division of Porsche AG who built and supported the cars, and paid for most of the program. Outside of that, unless one counts the LMP1, all of the other Porsche programs were supported by Porsche AG as money-making customer car programs.

One can say that this is all a bunch of buck passing between regional divisions of a car company, competition branches of a car company, and actual car companies themselves. But that buck passing is what caused Audi to dump the ALMS when they couldn't convince the then AoA boss to pay for more of the cost of that program. And we're probably seeing the same with Ford with them cutting back on other programs. If the FoMoCo brass in Dearborn see fit, well only be seeing Ford in NASCAR with a factory program in the near future, and even their other divisions are reliant on funding from Detroit.

And we've seen from TMG how much they got shafted by the bean counters in Japan with their WEC deal...TMG can't exist without TMC's backing.

[Christian Mogami]

That US P1 thing is dead because NASCAR controls the tracks we want to race at and they will not change they're minds about letting P1's run at certain events or adding them in 2015 but things can change anytime.

[chernaudi]

I don't think that NASCAR has anything to do with this "no LMP1 in America" deal. Audi and Toyota could've entered LMP1 cars in the ALMS at any time they wanted to since 2011 for Audi and 2012 for Toyota.

But that goes back to what I said previously. Audi and Toyota aren't going to "front" a program for a regional series without significant help from the regional importer. Audi of America and Toyota's American division would've had to have paid for promotion and other related items, even if Audi Sport and TMG/TMC would've paid most of the cost for actually running the cars or the teams.

The only way around that is rich privateers wanting to run second-hand factory cars, but the same issues would likely persist. Factory built LMP1s are expensive machinery, and Greg Pickett says that an LMP1 privateer's budget in the ALMS and WEC as of now is about equal to what a front-running NASCAR Nationwide Series team uses. And even if those budgets are a fraction of what a NASCAR Sprint Cup budget is (sponsorship budgets for Cup teams range from $15-25 million USD a year), it's still a significant fraction. And Audi's ALMS budget from 2008 was estimated to be about $15-20 million a year, which is equal to a Sprint Cup sponsorship budget. Racing at this level isn't cheap, factories don't want to spent a crapload of money on a regional series unless there's a significant ROI that make it worth while, and there's not enough sponsorship for private teams to run a factory LMP1 without support from a regional importer. And as I pointed out, regional importers have proven to be unable and/or unwilling to foot such bills.

If regional importers would take up the slack for foreign manufacturers, Audi might be in the ALMS now, Toyota might have 1-2 cars entered, but usually racing budgets are dictated by advertizing budgets, and print ads and product placement will almost always trump racing except for the hottest ticket in town, which in North America is NASCAR. Even if ALMS ranked second to NASCAR in terms of fan attendance and TV ratings and NASCAR is a wounded giant, they're still a far way behind NASCAR, and who knows how much USCR will be able to use their NASCAR ties to help out promo and TV ratings, and things tied to that.

[Fogelhund]

Jeff Braun ‏@jvbraun 2h
Watch LMPC this weekend. They are getting NO changes for 2014. So that’s benchmark. Same tire and rules. Great weekend to compare classes.

So if Mr. Braun is correct, and I have no reason to doubt him, it would seem as though LMP2 should be about the same pace as now, or the LMPC's will be right with them.... so, at Road America you can tell how much the DP's will need to be sped up at that particular track to even them out.

------------------------------

As far as tracks, ownership of tracks wouldn't be a barrier to any P1 series. Watkins Glen, Sebring, Daytona, Road Atlanta are all we need to worry about.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Jeff Braun ‏@jvbraun 2h
Watch LMPC this weekend. They are getting NO changes for 2014. So that’s benchmark. Same tire and rules. Great weekend to compare classes.

So if Mr. Braun is correct, and I have no reason to doubt him, it would seem as though LMP2 should be about the same pace as now, or the LMPC's will be right with them.... so, at Road America you can tell how much the DP's will need to be sped up at that particular track to even them out.

Sector times at Road America would be very useful to look at when comparing lap times.

On a relatd topic, the question I have for series management and teams would be how comfortable are you with DP's being quick at some tracks while P2's at others? Depending on how things are balanced I could image scenarios where certain types of cars have a better shot at winning at a given track. When this has arisen in the past the team owners seem to shout quite loud. I have no problem with team owners fighting for a fair shot. But personally I would prefer they keep the complaints with the series management and not complain so loudly in the media.

I suppose this is a direct result of promoting spec parts and squashing innovation. In the past you could spend your time and energy trying some engineering solutions to make up the lap time you are losing to the competition. Now you spend the same time and energy asking the series for bop adjustments.

[jasonjessica09]

LMPC cars can (and should) have air restrictors added to them though. That can still be done even though the current tech regs remain.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by jasonjessica09

LMPC cars can (and should) have air restrictors added to them though. That can still be done even though the current tech regs remain.

Not really, choke their restrictors any more than now and they won't be able to outdrag Vettes and Vipers down the straights.

[MoMedic9019]

There is an alleged two day test following the race on Sunday for DP/PC/P2....I'll be hanging around on Tuesday...somewhere...

[chernaudi]

Ryan already said than a LMP2 is already as fast or faster than a DP almost everywhere on a track, but that's if one uses Sebring as the bench mark.

And if we see the speed increase that LMPC saw when they switched from the Michelin club racing slicks to the Continental/Hoosier rubber, LMP2 might be faster next year if absolutely left as is. However, LMPC has seen more tire wear/tire deg than they saw with the Michelins previously. So the same may apply there.

But at least IMSA/USCR is now using LMPC as the bench mark for DP vs LMP2 BoP. That's better than having to start form scratch, if the Braun comments are 100% true, and I'm pretty sure that he knows more than most do about the subject as of now--only IMSA brass would probably know (and in fact should know) more.

[BullMan]

Originally Posted by jasonjessica09

LMPC cars can (and should) have air restrictors added to them though. That can still be done even though the current tech regs remain.

Why?

[Lanky Turtle]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Jeff Braun ‏@jvbraun 2h
Watch LMPC this weekend. They are getting NO changes for 2014. So that’s benchmark. Same tire and rules. Great weekend to compare classes.

So if Mr. Braun is correct, and I have no reason to doubt him, it would seem as though LMP2 should be about the same pace as now, or the LMPC's will be right with them.... so, at Road America you can tell how much the DP's will need to be sped up at that particular track to even them out.

------------------------------

As far as tracks, ownership of tracks wouldn't be a barrier to any P1 series. Watkins Glen, Sebring, Daytona, Road Atlanta are all we need to worry about.

Both series ran Road America last year and I would think times will be similar this year.
DP was about 6 seconds off P2, 3 seconds off PC and 2 seconds up on GTE.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Lanky Turtle

Both series ran Road America last year and I would think times will be similar this year.
DP was about 6 seconds off P2, 3 seconds off PC and 2 seconds up on GTE.

Hmm, the weather in June is the same as August? Track conditions make no difference in lap times? No difference in set up?







L.P.

[Beetle]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Hmm, the weather in June is the same as August? Track conditions make no difference in lap times? No difference in set up?







L.P.

He's not saying that. He's saying they are similar. It's all a gray area until we get to the Roar Before the Rolex 24 next year.

[BullMan]

Originally Posted by Beetle

He's not saying that. He's saying they are similar. It's all a gray area until we get to the Roar Before the Rolex 24 next year.

And then we'll finally have the regs. Hopefully.