The 'Great' WEC Grid Girl Debate

[Rodger Davies]

I don't think anyone's denying that right. Yes, they have a right to accept that job. But in this case, the employer has a right not to offer that job.

[Spyderman]

My argument was said to be "fallacious". I was reiterating the argument that I was making. Where is the fallacy in that argument?
If it's not in that argument, which argument was the fallacious one?
What I'm trying to decipher is exactly where the fallacy lies, or was there never any fallacy and was the accusation just bandied about in an attempt to intimidate, diminish and close down opposition?

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by Rodger Davies

I don't think anyone's denying that right. Yes, they have a right to accept that job. But in this case, the employer has a right not to offer that job.

...and no one denies that either.
To Reiterate: What some of us take exception to is the reasons given for the refusal to offer the job.

[whitemr2]

Pretty girls registerd at a modelagengy are hired to be gridgirls. Nothing wrong with that. IMO it is just work.. But the political descision has been made under influence of lobbyists who don't care or have even ever seen motorsports in real life. Let's just accept it and go on enjoying WEC.

[GTfour]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

...and no one denies that either.
To Reiterate: What some of us take exception to is the reasons given for the refusal to offer the job.

Exactly.

[GTfour]

Originally Posted by whitemr2

Pretty girls registerd at a modelagengy are hired to be gridgirls. Nothing wrong with that. IMO it is just work.. But the political descision has been made under influence of lobbyists who don't care or have even ever seen motorsports in real life. Let's just accept it and go on enjoying WEC.

Too easy not to put up a fight for expressions of freedom being taken away by us by them who deem themselves morally superior to us. What's next? Not being allowed to wear shorts at this event anymore because it might offend some folk with very twisted views of sexuality?

[whitemr2]

Originally Posted by GTfour

Too easy not to put up a fight for expressions of freedom being taken away by us by them who deem themselves morally superior to us. What's next? Not being allowed to wear shorts at this event anymore because it might offend some folk with very twisted views of sexuality?

I know, I know, sometimes in life things are not worth the 'fight' simply because it can not be won. I will sign the petition though, just tell me where......

[GTfour]

Originally Posted by whitemr2

I know, I know, sometimes in life things are not worth the 'fight' simply because it can not be won. I will sign the petition though, just tell me where......

Like in our own country, one can sign petitions all one wants, the governing bodies are gonna do what they want anyway. The only power we simple souls have these days is voicing our concerns on the net/social media.

[isynge]

Originally Posted by GTfour

Like in our own country, one can sign petitions all one wants, the governing bodies are gonna do what they want anyway. The only power we simple souls have these days is voicing our concerns on the net/social media.

Or if it's really that important, do what the WEC has done, and stop buying it.

If you believe so passionately that this challenges your inalienable rights, don't come to Le Mans, don't watch Silverstone, do something else, and maybe change society.

The WEC has made a decision and justified it on the basis of social norms. Whether you feel it's been influenced by politically correct lobbying or not, that doesn't alter the issue that it is reflecting a social movement (look at, for example, at gamergate, pro breastfeeding, anti page 3, and a while host of others). Racing competes in this world (and I appreciate this isn't to everyone's taste) and this makes certain things happen.

It's also worth thinking back to Henri Pescarolo's thoughts on the demise of his team, essentially that there were times when he had major French sponsors lined up but the plans fell through because the boards of these companies felt motor racing was toxic to their brand values (apologies for paraphrasing, tracking down the direct quote on a phone interface isn't entirely straight forward).

If we claim to love sportscar racing isn't it sometimes incumbent on us to think about why it may be toxic?

[Akrapovic]

There's a lot of cries of freedom and how banning grid girls is a removal of freedom. Not sure I follow this logic, given that grid girls are not banned - they just aren't being hired. If I decide that I no longer need my admin team, and choose not to rehire them, I have not banned admin staff. I'm just choosing not to employ them. This also ignores WECs right to hire who they want and to promote their series in the way they see fit. Am I right in thinking that the men want the freedom to look at women (but disguise this under the "womans right to dress how she wants"), but WEC is not to have the freedom to not hire this section of the workforce? They are essentially being declared redundant.

If you don't like it, then vote with your wallet and do not support their series. I bet not one single person complaining will stop watching the series. And if they do, then it's not exactly a loss.

[tux]

Guess what? Come 11:55 on Sunday morning you wont even notice there arent any grid girls....

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Just as I suspected. You did in fact miss the point. (possibly willingly)
If you were discussing this honestly, you would need to recognize that my comments regarding the UN are related to your negation of the concept of alienable rights; Not the employment of grid girls. To pretend otherwise is to be intellectually dishonest.
Alienable rights were brought up in relation to the argument that some were making insinuating that the grid-girls were some kind of dumb bimbo's that had somehow been brain washed by their parents to like high heels and dresses , and if it wasn't for that, they would chooses to do non gender specific jobs. That argument was proved wrong by a study I posted showing that children as young as nine months choose gender specific toys. Furthermore, what I argued was that independently of whether one agrees or not with dresses and high heels , the girls have a fundamental right to choose to accept a job offered to them and to like dresses and high heels. They have the right to choose.
The tactic that you employed, was to dive-bomb into the argument; throw out a couple of unsubstantiated accusations , and fly off into the distance.
I get it that you don't agree, but it would be nice to show some respect to those that have an opposing view point.

I've already done that. I thought that although perhaps lightweight, my observations were fairly obvious but they've clearly either fallen flat or simply passed you by. It matters not to me, other than the suggestion that I've not shown respect (whether to you or anyone else) which I wholly refute. Nor have I flown off into the distance. As a moderator I can't do that. I have read all that has been posted and like CTD I'm surprised at where this thread has gone. But so be it - it's up to you to discuss it as you wish (within reason). But don't start getting on my case because I've queried those things which you clearly hold dear. (I would probably hold them dear too, if I believed they truly existed in reality). I don't disagree (and never have) with the fundamental right of the girls to take up the employment that has previously been offered. I don't recall that ever being my point. I was talking about your 'rights', as that was how I perceived you to be expressing the point. If you were referring to the girls rights to take up offered employment, then obviously I concede that.

[Maelochs]

We don't actually know Why the decision was made. We know what the PR department told us ... but that department's whole job is to change the way facts appear, if they appear at all.

Was this the result of one wife with a real desire to feel powerful and a joy in feeling outraged? Long pressure from women's groups? A small acadre of "enlightened" people within FIA? Was it really done at Finance and PR totally spun it? I don't know. I don't think any poster does.

We all know some peple love to be "outraged" and to feel "morally superior." And we know that the whole PC thing, while well-meaning and rooted in a desire to root out real discriminatory practices, can sometimes go too far—but we don't know if this is such a case.

Spydermans says: " Like in our own country, one can sign petitions all one wants, the governing bodies are gonna do what they want anyway. The only power we simple souls have these days is voicing our concerns on the net/social media."

That is a Total cop-out. Having worked to effect political change I can tell you it is a very long, hard and frustrating fight, but your refusal to make the effort shows exactly how "outraged you really are. So if "Grid-Girl-Gate" doesn
't matter enough for you to actually do something, then you are just venting here and would probably vent just as passionately about any number of topics, including, say, a move to spec tires in GTE or such.

Isynge replies: ”Or if it's really that important, do what the WEC has done, and stop buying it.

"If you believe so passionately that this challenges your inalienable rights, don't come to Le Mans, don't watch Silverstone, do something else, and maybe change society."

That's what's called a "Rubber, meet road" challenge. "Put Up or Shut Up." A real-world litmus test of interest.

Look I really appreciate that you (Spyderman) and others see and understand how groupthink and fear and NoThink allow huge masses of society to be herded like cattle when we are supposed to stand tall and think clearly as individuals.

I think we lose a lot more (at least in the U.S.) through apathy and ignorance (willful, the worst kind) and idiocy than most people realize ... but I also think it was probably always this way, even back in those halcyon days of rugged individualists with their muskets marching off to fight the British (or, in the case of the Whiskey Rebellion, the Continental Army.) I think most people have always been herd animals, or to be a little more kind, more interested in the direct day-to-day struggles for survival than the somewhat abstract political debates which often had long-term effects on those struggles.

One think I learned through activism" Pick Your Fights.

As Tux says, "Guess what? Come 11:55 on Sunday morning you wont even notice there arent any grid girls...."

I read that to mean, if we aren't so outraged that we won't even watch the race at Silverstone (or any other FIA-sponsored event) then we aren't committed to this fight. We shouldn't waste any energy.

General trends in thought will always move broadly and slowly. People here talk about what women who were reclaiming their sexuality in the late '60s and early '70s (and later with the Riot Grrrl ideas and such, a time when once again women said "We can be sexy, and pursue sex, just like men do") but the fact is, we can see a lot more flesh nowadays that we ever could back in the '60s.

Back then sure, some young ladies wore miniskirts. But now women feel comfortable showing a lot more flesh, and no one hardly notices. This isn't a sign women are more degraded or more oppressed ... it is a sign that several social trends are at work simultaneously and over longer periods of time.

All the PC crap, well-meaning or overblown or ridiculous, will level out in a while ... give it a few decades. New ideas will come and go; some will take root. Most really stupid and dangerous ideas won't last, or more likely will re-emerge time and again, and be beaten back time and again.

Really, though, who here is not for treating all human beings, generally, like human beings? I am pretty sure none of us want to create any general class of second-class citizens.

Some people think that is the issue here—it's not. Nor is the issue that racing will be ruined without a little thigh. In fact, there a probably a few different issues here for each of us, some probably barely related to the nominal topic.

Wisdom here? "This, too, shall pass."

The real loss, Spyderman et al, is when folks like you are no longer willing to fight for what you believe in. (which I don't think is the right for grid girls to have WEC-sponsored jobs.) While I don't think this is a worthy fight, I am heartened by the existence of people who actually think about the idea of Inalienable Rights—I think this is one of the most important ideas of the past several hundred years.

By the way: fighting this one would Not best be done by fighting the WEC. The bast thing to do would be to hire some young ladies, put them in hot costumes, and send them out to collect donations at the track to "Fight for Grid-Girl Rights." Use the collected funds to start a company providing attractive young ladies to teams and sponsors at racing events.

In other words, don't argue over grid-girls—hire them.

A huge winky smiley face will not be displayed Here.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Spydermans says: " Like in our own country, one can sign petitions all one wants, the governing bodies are gonna do what they want anyway. The only power we simple souls have these days is voicing our concerns on the net/social media.".

Point of correction: Spyderman said no such thing. I believe you are quoting GTFour.

[DistortedSmile]

Originally Posted by tux

Guess what? Come 11:55 on Sunday morning you wont even notice there arent any grid girls....

Indeed and that's because its not about the grid girls (at least to me its not).
What I don't like is that this is a blatant PR move designed just so the ACO can say: Look at how progressive we are! It's so backwards to have grid girls, it's 2015! At least that's what it comes off as to me.
If they felt so strongly about this then they should have done it without publicizing it and no one would have cared, by doing what they did they're picking a side and bringing politics into this, they're an organizing body, their job is to organize races, not telling people what is morally acceptable. Especially when they could instead be discussing things that are actually relevant to the sport like the P2 regs.

[Spyderman]

Thank you Maelochs. Whilst I don’t agree with everything you have written, I certainly understand what it is that you are trying to say. I really don’t think anyone here is willing to give up a lifelong love affair with sportscar racing because of this grid-girl issue; especially as this is not really about the banning of grid-girls. It’s about the imposition of a set of values held by one group over all the rest. It’s called “social engineering” and progressives love to do it. They don’t take kindly to any form of opposition but the truth is that we have allowed them to take control of our media and educational systems and they now find themselves in a much stronger position than those of us that believe in individual rights and civil liberties.
They reject the concept of inalienable rights (or natural rights) as in order to succeed in their social engineering experiment, they must be able to change important laws at will and therefor are only interested in “legal rights” (those given by government). Those are easy to change. Lobbying and pressure will assure victory.
The grid-girl issue is just another example of what is happening all around us today. I suppose naïvely; we just never thought it would affect our beloved sport.

[Victor_RO]

I'll just leave this opinion piece here:

http://themotorsportarchive.com/2015...nd-motorsport/

Any product (and let’s take motorsport as a product) that feels the need to utilise sex status in order to sell itself should ask itself the following questions:

Who are they selling to?;
Why does one need sex to sell it?;
And more importantly, what exactly is sex helping it sell?

[Bob Baldwin]

spyderman : You hit the nail on the head ! " Social Engineering " Who needs it ? Get rid of the PC Mentality

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

I'll just leave this opinion piece here:

http://themotorsportarchive.com/2015...nd-motorsport/

"Any product (and let’s take motorsport as a product) that feels the need to utilise sex status in order to sell itself should ask itself the following questions: Who are they selling to?; Why does one need sex to sell it?; And more importantly, what exactly is sex helping it sell?"

Yeah, well, something like 90 percent of the ads on TV, magazines and billboards feature pretty girls ... so I guess there is a Lot of soul-searching to be done.

Did you see the Mythbusters episode where Kari wore a variety of chest prosthetics? They determined that men and to an even greater degree women gave bigger tips top a really well-endowed female server.

Not saying anything about values, just the straight-up scientifically tested reality--whyever it works, it works.

[isynge]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Yeah, well, something like 90 percent of the ads on TV, magazines and billboards feature pretty girls ... so I guess there is a Lot of soul-searching to be done.

And is starting here with soul searching such a bad thing?

We've heard from woman fans who feel grid girls put them off.

We've heard from women in the industry whose lives have been made harder by a Motorsport culture that buys into grid girls.

We've heard from men who aren't comfortable being associated with a culture that seems to enshrine the notion of the grid girl.

And we're saying "I can't hear you" to all that?

I know cognitive dissonance is a thing, but seriously, are we that blind?

[Maelochs]

Okay dude, walk the talk. Here on the Internet it is easy to be righteous. If all this Really matters to you, work for change.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

First off, being a grid girl is not degrading per se. Some people who are not grid girls seem to think it is degrading ... but those people shouldn't be telling those girls the girls are being degraded ... it is up to the girls to decide.

You make a great point. Personally of all the models and grid girls I have known none of them have ever remotely considered it "degrading" and in fact for many they quite enjoyed the work.

So you have all these boobaphobic astroturfers here "being a grid girl is degrading, sexist, demeaning and must be stopped now!" and here they are imposing their will of what they think the job is on these girls and the girls feel very much the opposite.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by isynge

And is starting here with soul searching such a bad thing?

We've heard from woman fans who feel grid girls put them off.

We've heard from women in the industry whose lives have been made harder by a Motorsport culture that buys into grid girls.

We've heard from men who aren't comfortable being associated with a culture that seems to enshrine the notion of the grid girl.

And we're saying "I can't hear you" to all that?

I know cognitive dissonance is a thing, but seriously, are we that blind?

Astroturfing. One woman put off by it is not a groundswell movement of anti grid girls. Nor are a few young lads scared to death of boobs. And knowing more women in the motorsport industry than just about anyone here, almost no women in the business give a damn about women in lycra as grid girls.

The reason why motorsport around the world is increasingly ending up with empty stands and poor tv ratings is because a few loud people and political correctness have driven the sport to lose the plot. For most of it's existence people got involved in motorsport because it was fun, it was a competition and an escape from our daily lives. We were not spending our money and time to go to race weekends to deal with people with wacko political agendas like sexism or global warming/global cooling/climate change/climate disruption or whatever it is called today.

So yes continue to strive to snuff out anything fun, anything competitive or anything entertaining and see how many people you end up with. It's bad now and it's on the path to getting worse if this keeps up.

[Maelochs]

By the way, this might have slipped through ...

"Did you see the Mythbusters episode where Kari wore a variety of chest prosthetics? They determined that men and to an even greater degree women gave bigger tips to a really well-endowed female server.

Not saying anything about values, just the straight-up scientifically tested reality--why ever it works, it works."

So maybe all the "Sex Sells!" stuff is true, and isn't offensive to nearly as many people as the activists on that topic would like us to believe.

Personally I think our incoherent and generally immature attitudes towards sex (mine own included) hinder society in ways we don't bother to think about. Teen pregnancy is rising? Maybe because we tell preteens that sex is the be-all, end-all of human existence in TV shows and movies almost constantly.

Of course, a lot of that could be offset if parents actually Educated and Communicated With their children ... but most parents don't seem to find the time, or are too uncomfortable to deal with their own ideas, to actually present a rational case to their children (kids might not have much experience but they can detect BS really well.)

Grid girls are Not a part of this. Neither are grid guys. Physical appearance is one of the prime forces of sexual selection, and people who pretend otherwise are part of the problem.

Having attractive (if you find them attractive) people standing around is Not sending a message that those people are good for nothing else, or that they are lesser human beings, or that they should be used and discarded.

By the time kids can respond to a grid girl or guy, they have seen dozens of hours of situation comedies laden with sexual innuendo, will have heard countless double entendres and sexual allusions from their parents and parents' friends ... and if their parents have not frankly explained things to them (and trained them to think critically) they for sure will have figured out their own meanings.

As for adults who get all freaked out about it ... never mind.

Instead of going to a race, go to a rape crisis center, or be a Big Brother or Big Sister to an abused and unloved child. Really make a difference.

Or not. The world is full of this stuff--teapot tempests, tin-badge lawmen, tinhorn dictators ... the only defense is to think for oneself, and by living sensibly show by example that that course also exists.

As far as Silverstone is concerned ... I am So glad it will be on legitimate TV ... but I so wish it wasn't Fox. It will likely be so laden with commercials it will be impossible to follow the race. But ... it is a step above shaky pirated Internet or equally shaky paid internet. And .. I can DVR the race.

Forget the grid girls ... will Porsche, Audi, or Toyota be more ready out of the box?

[Maelochs]

And for people nicknamed "dude": Keep up the good work. everyone has his or her issues to tackle; some I might think are trivial might be really important for some other person for some other reason. Thanks for pointing that out--i can be a bit of a mule (and then I wake up, have a cup of coffee, and start talking ... all downhill from there.)

What part of Georgia? near Road Atlanta? (Lol, j/k.)