Hamilton's Spa penalty - fair?/ Massa Handed Win..Merged

[gert]

Originally Posted by Andrew Kitson

If someone has already posted this, apologies. A petition to the FIA has been set up, with enough signatures the powers that be must take notice:
http://www.petitiononline.com/belgp08/petition.html

With all due respect, but unless you/we do so for EVERY single decision that the FIA makes that you/we think is wrong (regardless of the drivers/teams involved), I think it's nonsense to make such a petition.

Just my opinion, of course.

[BeeJ]

Originally Posted by Pondo

I presume I was watching the same race as you, the one where Kimi locked up on the way into the bus stop and chopped right across Lewis on the exit of the right hander - the same one where Lewis cut across the inside of the left hander, which saw him come out in front, but where he lifted off and allowed Kimi back in front.

That was the one, wasn't it? Where Kimi swerved across in front of Lewis just before La Source?

Thats the one that I watched. I dread the thought of the new rules on overtaking if this is the result. Proof that F1 is no longer a sport.

[JohnMiller]

KR took the line entitled on the right hander.

LH was quicker and should have won, but he only passed at La Source then as he was much closer to KR than he would have been had he followed him through the Bus Stop. He took an advantage.

He should, and probably would, have passed KR anyway in another lap or so and would have deserved what was a fantastic win.

[djinvicta]

Originally Posted by BeeJ

Thats the one that I watched. I dread the thought of the new rules on overtaking if this is the result. Proof that F1 is no longer a sport.

Hasnt been sport for years..........

[Pondo]

Originally Posted by JohnMiller

KR took the line entitled on the right hander.

LH was quicker and should have won, but he only passed at La Source then as he was much closer to KR than he would have been had he followed him through the Bus Stop. He took an advantage.

He should, and probably would, have passed KR anyway in another lap or so and would have deserved what was a fantastic win.

Have another butcher's on YouTube. If KR had taken the appropriate line through the Bus Stop, he probably would have been as quick out of the chicane as Lewis, but he was so intent on shutting the door, it put him right off line on the inside into the left hander. At that point, Lewis was sufficiently alongside him that he no option to run off to the outside/inside of the left hander. If there was any advantage to be taken, it was through Kimi's action in running him off the track - and he conceded any advantage when he lifted off and let Kimi through into the lead again.

You know, the one where he swerved across the front of Lewis into the braking zone at La Source.

[Fogelhund]

Very disappointing call. I've grown more and more disillusioned with F1 and the FIA's brutal calls. I've missed a few races this year, first time really since the 70's... I make a point to watch Spa, and the FIA pulls a stunt like this. This is becoming a farce and quite unbearable.

[Fish_Flake]

As much as I don't want Lewis Hamilton to run away with the Drivers' Championship, the penalty called against him was a complete joke. Whether or not he cut through the chicane or Kimi Raikkonen forced him off the track, the results of Lewis' excursion clearly had no significant effect on the action on the battle for position. If he immediately pulled out to a three-second lead over Kimi once he made it past, it would have warranted a penalty. That wasn't the case, Raikkonen had the better car today, and he was ready to reclaim the lead as soon as it was taken away from him.

If one follows the letter of the rule, then perhaps Hamilton was guilty of something. If this incident happened earlier in the race, the stewards would have likely told Hamilton to satisfactorily cede the place or incur a drive-through penalty. Due to the limited number of laps remaining and the fact that the affected party retired from the race shortly afterward, that option was not available. The punishment should fit the crime, but in this case it clearly doesn't. Being docked the equivalent of a drive-through penalty, and handing over the victory to a driver that was not in a position to win, for an incident that had no bearing on the final outcome is absolutely ridiculous. Not only does McLaren need to protest the results, but the rest of the teams (Ferrari excepted, obviously) must come out in objection of having the outcome of the race and championship be decided off the racetrack.

[Farbrooke]

Not read all the posts thoroughly so sorry if already said but -

The actual penalty concerns me - cannot see why should be just deducting a time -
Firstly can you just guess at what time LH would have been lost?

Secondly if you impose such a penalty after the race has finished you surely must assume the offender would be able to carry out the penalty?

So - if LH had gone into pits on last lap, to carry out penalty, would Massa (14.461 secs behind) have crossed the finish line before LH had done so in the pits (remember Senna's win) but before Heidfield (23.844 behind LH)

- if Massa would have crossed the line then race over - LH could really be second?

Not that I think there should be a penalty anyhow

[the sniper]

I think that today's events were mainly due to the rules being poorly written in this area. I don't know what to think about the FIA stewards decision, as I think they were wrong, but I can see why they did it.

Looking at the rules, they don't make it clear how far you should fall back from the car you passed off the track. You can argue what happened either way, yes, Lewis did fall back, but, was it far enough? Did he manege to use Kimi's slipstream? If he hadn't of cut the corner, would he have got past Kimi there?

Then there is the punishment, was it too harsh? Were the FIA just giving the same punishment they normally give for these incidents and should they have given a 10 place grid penalty instead? Would that have looked even more circumspect with Monza up next?

As I said at the top of the post, I think the FIA's decision was wrong. I think for the sake of the sport, they should have not punished him. The case for a punishment was marginal at best.

What is needed now is clarification in the rules and McLaren's appeal to be successful.

I think one of the reason's why this has created so much response and upset is because it was a bloody good race, up until Hamilton's drive became pointless.

[ensign14]

Originally Posted by jonboy1066

Yep that's the one, the very same one where Kimi hit Lewis in the rear exiting La Source

After making 2 distinct moves on the straight to keep LH behind.

[Force_Majeure]

I feel that Hamilton indeed had an advantage by cutting the corner, by letting Kimi pass just barely and overtake him right after. When i saw the incident while it occured I found it a grey area thing. I think he should have waited till after the la source hairpin. The point is I think that he would have had no chance of catching Kimi in the first corner if he hadn't cut the corner. The thing is that he let Kimi pass by such a small margin that he enjoyed an advantage by doing so.

Also, I'd like to add that as Kimi crashed, and in the end the incident didn't affect the results, I still don't think that is enough reason to let it pass. It is pretty much irrelevant whether or not it affected the results, if the stewards think he had an advantage in the whole incident, Hamilton should be punished.

But not in this fashion.

Yes, I think Hamilton was wrong (many of you may not agree on this part already) but what's more important is that it's just a small incident. A fine would and a warning have sufficed. They should have taken him apart and say: "Next time give the position back in a less half-hearted way," have McLaren pay such and such amount and be gone with it. So while I agree that Hamilton is being punished, the 25-second penalty is gigantically out of proportion.

The thing that bothers me most though is the fact that after such a great climax to a race in which two drivers really made the Formule One-show shine in a way it seldom does, the FIA should have recognized it's these races that make fans sit on the edge of their chairs, shout at the screen, and feel the blood pumping in their veins. The last three laps of this Grand Prix is the very reason we all love Formula One, Hamilton-fans and non-fans alike. And the FIA should, whilst not letting the issue pass unquestioned, leave the results alone and be glad there are still drivers who race to win and to win only.

[beau1]

Originally Posted by Robert

Here's one they made earlier.

Pedro De La Rosa and Michael Schumacher.

No penalty given then, even though Schumacher clearly gained an advantage which he didn't give back..

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=-5UnPeyzcHM

A good find but there are few differences in this incident compared to the one seen today. Before they reached the chicane, I don't think De La Rosa (Although it is hard to see) had actually passed Schumacher, so he (Schumacher) didn't actually gain an advantage as such, just stopped De La Rosa gaining an advantage over him. It would have been a different situation if it had indeed been the attacking car (De la Rosa) in this case had gone off.

Also, Schumacher broke a track rod later in the race and finished 8th therefore meaning there wasn't any realistic reason to punish an action that had already been punished (by him damaging his own car only a few laps later). So really in the long run he gained no advantage and could have well been punished for it after the race if he had finished infront of de la Rosa.

[James Elder]

This decision was ridiculous and is only adding to a season of inconsistent penalties from the F1 stewards (and where Ferrari have been involved, they've got away with all of them - hmmm, that's odd isn't it?).

From what I saw of the overtaking at the chicane, Lewis was ahead at the entry, but Kimi was still alongside and took the normal lines through the chicane, so Lewis had to take avoiding action and as a result cut the corner. Lewis handed back the advantage he had gained by letting Kimi past and then overtook successfully into the first corner - with the help of a slipstream and some outbraking, regardless of the fact that he had already slowed to let Kimi past!

This isn't Formula 1, this isn't even sport - this is turning into the motor racing equivalent of professional wrestling.

I think the best way of watching the Italian Grand Prix next week is simply turning on the news at around 5pm and see who's really won (and I bet it's a Ferrari!).

[rallyxdamo]

Typical (we love hamilton response) grow up.

[ukaskew]

Originally Posted by Force_Majeure

I feel that Hamilton indeed had an advantage by cutting the corner, by letting Kimi pass just barely and overtake him right after.

I can't see where 'barely' comes into it, it's not as though Hamilton let Kimi pull up alongside him, Hamilton tucked in directly behind Kimi and crossed the line fully behind him. The pass then wasn't completed until they entered the next corner.

[brands]

Originally Posted by James Elder

I think the best way of watching the Italian Grand Prix next week is simply turning on the news at around 5pm and see who's really won (and I bet it's a Ferrari!).

If it's a McLaren you had best check again on the 9 o'clock news

[jonboy1066]

Originally Posted by James Elder

This decision was ridiculous and is only adding to a season of inconsistent penalties from the F1 stewards (and where Ferrari have been involved, they've got away with all of them - hmmm, that's odd isn't it?).

From what I saw of the overtaking at the chicane, Lewis was ahead at the entry, but Kimi was still alongside and took the normal lines through the chicane, so Lewis had to take avoiding action and as a result cut the corner. Lewis handed back the advantage he had gained by letting Kimi past and then overtook successfully into the first corner - with the help of a slipstream and some outbraking, regardless of the fact that he had already slowed to let Kimi past!

This isn't Formula 1, this isn't even sport - this is turning into the motor racing equivalent of professional wrestling.

I think the best way of watching the Italian Grand Prix next week is simply turning on the news at around 5pm and see who's really won (and I bet it's a Ferrari!).

Very true

[Bononi]

The teams should do something about it, when the achievements in a race must be "official" by off-track decisions. It's like in a football match, a goal being nulled after the match is over, following a late decision from the referees. Basically, if he crossed the line under the chequered flag and went to podium declared as the winner, that shouldn't be removed. A punishment for the next race would be more appropriate.

[James Elder]

Originally Posted by rallyxdamo

Typical (we love hamilton response) grow up.

Really mature.

For your info, I've been a motor racing marshal for 18 years - including marshalling at the British Grand Prix. I'm not a Hamilton lover - I like drivers with talent - which certainly includes Hamilton, but also includes ones such as Raikonnen, Kubica, Webber, Senna, Prost, Moss, Fangio, Clark, Stewart, Lauda, Jacques Villeneuve, Schumacher, etc.

The point is that this decision was out of context with the race and I think this thread shows that.

Remember everyone can have their own opinion and I don't think that sort of comment is a useful addition to any debate.

[ukaskew]

Originally Posted by Bononi

The teams should do something about it, when the achievements in a race must be "official" by off-track decisions. It's like in a football match, a goal being nulled after the match is over, following a late decision from the referees. Basically, if he crossed the line under the chequered flag and went to podium declared as the winner, that shouldn't be removed. A punishment for the next race would be more appropriate.

I disagree with this, had a car been found to be illegal (either by being underweight, or by the plank under the car being worn away, for example) I feel the result should be changed.

However, in this specific circumstance, Hamilton appears to have followed the letter of the law by yielding his position fully.

[beau1]

Originally Posted by brands

If it's a McLaren you had best check again on the 9 o'clock news

Funny that, the last race they won they didn't have taken off them.

[Anthc114]

Shocking , I agree with the others. It gets no better you knew what was coming a farce. As for typical Hamilton fan bull it happens to often now!

[CATMAN]

A disgrace! FIA and stewards should all resign as of today!

petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?belgp08

Sorry, but the FIA need to here what the fans feel

[Pondo]

Originally Posted by James Elder

This decision was out of context with the race...

Absolutely brilliant. It's inevitable that people will have different views of what went on, but I feel that thi sums up the Grand Prix today in a completely inarguable way.

[White flag man]

Originally Posted by Pondo

Absolutely brilliant. It's inevitable that people will have different views of what went on, but I feel that thi sums up the Grand Prix today in a completely inarguable way.

And you can watch the circus all over again on ITV in 3 minutes